tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post6593638651764971409..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: EJF - Halachic justification/ / RoniDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20666525189923875112009-07-14T23:17:24.005+03:002009-07-14T23:17:24.005+03:00sadley most of this "fallen torah" comes...sadley most of this "fallen torah" comes from :<br />1. Pegam Habris<br />2. eating to many M&M's thinking its Colov Yisroel<br />3.Being maschis the beard and Paqyos<br />4. Studying PhylosophyKanoimpogimbonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29930784381297179172009-06-30T20:52:37.091+03:002009-06-30T20:52:37.091+03:00Daas Torah said...
Mekubal wrote:
Once a...Daas Torah said...<br /><br /> Mekubal wrote:<br /><br /> Once again Roni, you can read things anyway you like, but that is not what this says. This says, "And that there is to take hold of the understanding that it is permitted to teach Torah to a Goy if his mind is to convert." I am convinced that either you do not know Hebrew or that you are intentionally misreading these statements.<br /><br /> Your rejection of R' Efrati's letter of clarification is ridiculous. He is R' Eliashiv's right hand man. Is he lying? Is he woefully misinformed?<br /><br /> At the request of R' Eidensohn I asked R' Eisenstein about R' Efrati's clarification. His statement was that he understood R' Eliashiv's position the same way.<br /> ==================<br /> With the confirmation from both Rav Efrati and Rav Eisenstein that Rav Eliashiv's teshuva 3:140 is not talking about proselytizing or inspiring a nonJew to convert - I think it is time to end this thread.<br /><br /> Roni - any more repetition of your distorted and abusive ad hominem comments will simply be rejected. Whether it is your problematic readings of Rav Eliashiv and other poskim or whether it is your reflex denunciation of R' Bomzer. Enough is enough. However you have served the valuable service of confirming for us the tenuous and problematic nature of R' Tropper's authority to do what he is doing.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85742203108471548132009-06-27T23:59:25.519+03:002009-06-27T23:59:25.519+03:00Roni, no one can have a civil discussion with you ...Roni, no one can have a civil discussion with you when you scream and shout and act like a total boor and ignore the questions put to you and you keep on throwing the words "Bomzer this and Bomzer that" as if it has anything to do with the discussion.<br /><br />When will you learn that a discussion cannot take place if you keep on throwing bombs in the way with your notorious red herring diversions?<br /><br />You are not Rav Yosef Karo writing the Shulchan Oruch and interpreting it definitively nor are you the only one who says "where does it say in the shulchan oruch this and that" like a beginner. Some things are so pushut that the shulchan oruch doesn't have to spell them out, and that is why for starters I asked some basic questions of you, and all you can do is have temper tantrums and throw fits of anger that things are not going your way.[...]<br /><br />As for a "New Testament" it's funny you use that word because it is EJF and Tropper [...] desire, to become frabrente missionaries for a new religion to recruit limitless numbers of gentiles hitched to Jews and even half of the human race and "convert" to Tropper's new EJF religion that he has made up in his head with all the sources you cite making the rabbonim of those original sources toss and turn in their graves and wishing that their words had never reached you to be butchered and battered to support your krumme self-rationalizations to go on a mass EJF global proselytization rampage, rachmona litzlan.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82821441267341122722009-06-27T23:49:22.499+03:002009-06-27T23:49:22.499+03:00Roni said...
Dt, no I'm not an "employee&...Roni said...<br />Dt, no I'm not an "employee" of EJf or Rt. I am an employee of Hashem to fight FALSEHOOD AND TO PRESERVE TRUTH<br /><br /><br /><br />Anyone that knows Tropper know that he is Roni. There are three simanim in Tropper (at least):<br /><br />(1) Obsession with rav Bomzer<br />(2) A strong conviction that anyone who object him is a follower of rav Slifkin.<br />(3) Gets very angry when someone disagree with him.<br /><br />The reason that he is so obsessed with this blog is that for many years nobody stood up to him,[...] Now when he has hundreds of rabbis eating from his hand he cannot believe that there is a rav in Mea Shearin and a teacher in Har Nof who do not fear him and cannot be bought.<br /><br />As he says to mekorovav that the rabbi should mind what is happening in his city and the melamed should stick to teaching tinokos of bet raban.<br /><br />Two years ago there was a comment here that referred to R’Eidenshon as Nachshon because that time Tropper and the EJF seemed invincible and rav Eidenshon was kol kore bamidbar, now less people fear Tropper and the EJF, [...]the Money Tzadiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83351039169336673202009-06-26T18:21:55.178+03:002009-06-26T18:21:55.178+03:00Mekubal writes: "A lack which if corrected wo...Mekubal writes: "A lack which if corrected would in effect silence all of the critics he feels the need to criticize on his own blog. You cannot tell me that his words are polite, or even honest on that blog. His trying to tie this to Sifklin issue being a prime example of that. Sorry".<br /><br />He does not engage though in "wars" that you claim that he does. He defends himself from criticism aimed at him (mostly false ones) and he explains AND GIVES SOURCES (UNLIKE...) TO THE HALACHIK STATEMENTS HE MAKES THERE! You seem to think that the entire blog is tied about "slifkin". Why are you obssessed and interpret a whole blog with myriad of issues to be meant as "internet WARS". he is much more polite than most here (including *YOU*). There are no asd hominom attacks on that blog. he is staright and to the point! lOOK AT YOUR MESSAGES AND SEE IN THE MIRROR WHO IS ENGAGED ON THE BLOG WITH "INTERNET WARS"!<br /><br />MEkubal writes: "\ Secondly I am competely certain that the Rabbanim of BaDaTz and R' Sternbuch both know the Teshuvot of R' Eliashiv far better than you do. However, they still feel that clarification is needed.",<br /><br />ROni: Fine or them!BUT Rav Troppe ris entitled to feel, and I see it as such and most gedoyley tyisroel who partake with him feel the same way, for the Teshuva is clear that Rav ELyashiv allows and commends the one who teaches a intermarried goy torah in order that he be convinced or aroused to convert! It is BLACK ON WHITE! If you feel you disagree it upon to you to PROVE that you are right! And Again all the reasons that Rav Sternbuch mentioned in his letter are OPPOSED and not acceptd by Rav Moshe FEinstein, Rav Kamentzsky, Rav Henkin, Rav Aurbach and more. Why should RAv Tropper need to justify to someone whose objections differ from all the above gedoyley yisroel.<br /><br />It is clear from seeing you and or Dt and others here that no "clarification" will suffice to you! no matter what he brings or says will be opposed by you. It is clear that at best you misunderstand Rav Eisenstein1 Please bring a letter from him that state his objections about RT. OTherwise it is clear that he SUPPORTS RT! no organization of this sort get's "haskamah". they cannot give "haskomoh" to something that is needed and they support but is not the lechatchila if there would be no problems to begin with. but sicne there are problems this organization is NEEDED. ALl you have to deal with is to state why a Pssak by Rav ELyashiv does not suffice to you. But it is enlough for RT. The PSsak contradicts the positions of Rav Sternbuch and Rt is not obliged to justify to him why he follows Rav ELyashiv's pssak.<br /><br />It is quite interesting that you borrow some other epithtets and slogans that some members of this blog are used to like "red herring" without dealing with the contents of the claims made. <br /><br />In sum:A) RAV TROPPER HAS BACKING FROM A CLEAR TESHUVA BY RAV ELYASHIV!, 2) RAV STERNBUCH'S POSITION IS OPPOSED BY THE OPINIONS OF RAV MOSHE, RAV HENKIN, RAV AURBACH, RAV ELYASHIV, RAV KAMENETSKY AND MORE AND RAV TROPPER DOES NOT NEED TO JUSTIFY TO HIM WHY HE FOOLOWS THE OTHER OPINIONS!rONInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23615811499405312792009-06-26T18:07:28.748+03:002009-06-26T18:07:28.748+03:00Dt, no I'm not an "employee" of EJf ...Dt, no I'm not an "employee" of EJf or Rt. I am an employee of Hashem to fight FALSEHOOD AND TO PRESERVE TRUTH!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-81657700248584170442009-06-26T17:27:00.425+03:002009-06-26T17:27:00.425+03:00Roni are you an employee of EJF like Rabbi Dovid J...Roni are you an employee of EJF like Rabbi Dovid Jacobs? Is Rabbi Tropper informed of what you say and does he approve it?<br /><br />In other words can your responses be taken as authoritative regarding the views of EJF?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60332810988736389332009-06-26T17:18:08.294+03:002009-06-26T17:18:08.294+03:00Roni,
First this isn't my bog! Actually my o...Roni,<br /><br />First this isn't my bog! Actually my own blog does not deal with these issues. This is someone else's blog to which I comment. I have never demanded anything. I simply state that I am baffled by a certain lack. A lack which if corrected would in effect silence all of the critics he feels the need to criticize on his own blog. You cannot tell me that his words are polite, or even honest on that blog. His trying to tie this to Sifklin issue being a prime example of that. Sorry. Secondly I am competely <i>certain</i> that the Rabbanim of BaDaTz and R' Sternbuch both know the Teshuvot of R' Eliashiv <i>far</i> better than you do. However, they still feel that clarification is needed. Clarification which to date, despite obviously feeling attacked, R' Tropper has refused to put forth.<br /><br />The simple answer is that you are taking only parts of those Teshuvot, the parts that seem to agree with your position.<br /><br />If R' Eliashiv thought that his own Teshuvot backed EJF so strongly, why hasn't he simply given them a Haskama? Why does R' Eisenstein insist that such support, as would be implied by a Haskama not exist?<br /><br />Sorry you can throw out all the red-herrings that you want, however I still find it baffling and disturbing that R' Tropper has not produced a single haskama.<br /><br />That is my issue, my only issue.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71409926255721873852009-06-26T16:44:58.626+03:002009-06-26T16:44:58.626+03:00"First I want to say that R' Tropper does..."First I want to say that R' Tropper does engage in internet word wars. As has been demonstrated, he does have a blog, where he responds to criticism of D"T by criticizing him. So your statement that he does not is simply not true. You could argue the level to which he involves in them, but you cannot say that he does not".<br /><br />Roni: I am surprised that a civil response to criticism is called "internet wars". He mostly uses that blog to be "transparent" (something you deamnd in your blog) to answer the *sources* for position of the organization (something that is missing when asked in yuor blog).<br /><br /><br />"Mekubal:" . First as has been noted R' Sternbuch has himself requested that R' Tropper produce them. As has BaDaTz. I personally find it troublesome that he is seemingly ignoring these authorities, whatever other backing he may have".<br /><br />Roni: It is suprsing that his WRITTEN TESHUVAS OF RAV ELYASHIV are not enough tfor *you* or for Rav Sternbuch. Btw, most of his objections to the issue are OPPOSED by Rav MOshe Feinstein, Rav Henkin, Rav AUrbach, Rav Kamenetsky. All the rationales mentioned by Rav Sternbuch are opposed by all tthe above rabbis.<br /><br />Why are written PSSOKIM that contradict Rav Sternbuch and back Rav Tropper not enough to you?<br /><br />Rav ELyashiv clearly staets that one can/should teach torah to an intermarried couple is one thinks that there is a possibility that this wil lencourage him to convert. Why is this good enough for you?roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70966139629834145622009-06-26T16:44:57.057+03:002009-06-26T16:44:57.057+03:00"First I want to say that R' Tropper does..."First I want to say that R' Tropper does engage in internet word wars. As has been demonstrated, he does have a blog, where he responds to criticism of D"T by criticizing him. So your statement that he does not is simply not true. You could argue the level to which he involves in them, but you cannot say that he does not".<br /><br />Roni: I am surprised that a civil response to criticism is called "internet wars". He mostly uses that blog to be "transparent" (something you deamnd in your blog) to answer the *sources* for position of the organization (something that is missing when asked in yuor blog).<br /><br /><br />"Mekubal:" . First as has been noted R' Sternbuch has himself requested that R' Tropper produce them. As has BaDaTz. I personally find it troublesome that he is seemingly ignoring these authorities, whatever other backing he may have".<br /><br />Roni: It is suprsing that his WRITTEN TESHUVAS OF RAV ELYASHIV are not enough tfor *you* or for Rav Sternbuch. Btw, most of his objections to the issue are OPPOSED by Rav MOshe Feinstein, Rav Henkin, Rav AUrbach, Rav Kamenetsky. All the rationales mentioned by Rav Sternbuch are opposed by all tthe above rabbis.<br /><br />Why are written PSSOKIM that contradict Rav Sternbuch and back Rav Tropper not enough to you?<br /><br />Rav ELyashiv clearly staets that one can/should teach torah to an intermarried couple is one thinks that there is a possibility that this wil lencourage him to convert. Why is this good enough for you?roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56391371145133725452009-06-26T16:28:27.361+03:002009-06-26T16:28:27.361+03:00Roni Said...
3) Rav Tropper does not waste his tim...<b>Roni Said...</b><br /><i>3) Rav Tropper does not waste his time on "internet wars"! ROni (who IS NOT rt) wastes his time and energy on it!<br /><br />4) the most important question: Why does he not get haskamot?<br /><br />I'll give you possible answers which do not mean that they do not agree with him. a) Being thatit is a novel approach. Practically speaking this method was not used especially with such an intensity therefore any respected RESPONSIBLE POSSEK would not necessarily want to to put his paper to endorse an organization if CHas Vesholom it does not uscceeded to recah the hopeful goals.<br /><br />b) Maybe others may follow suit and misuse the idea of the organization to take it a step further and perform these covnersions iwtout kabbalat hamitzvot. He does not want to take this ublic step to put his name on paper to that level.<br /><br />c) and no RAbbi put's his name to sign on an organization which may in the future stumble on occasion and do soemthing that is not correct and then people migh tmistake that this particular acation had the apporval of the Rabbi as he signed on the organization.</i><br /><br />First I want to say that R' Tropper does engage in internet word wars. As has been demonstrated, he does have a blog, where he responds to criticism of D"T by criticizing him. So your statement that he does not is simply not true. You could argue the level to which he involves in them, but you cannot say that he does not.<br /><br />Secondly the haskamot are a major problem. The only one in fact that I have with R' Tropper. Here is why. First as has been noted R' Sternbuch has himself requested that R' Tropper produce them. As has BaDaTz. I personally find it troublesome that he is seemingly ignoring these authorities, whatever other backing he may have.<br /><br />Next the novelty of his approach is no reason for him to not have them. There is a a well respected internet based program to give semicha, and even dayanut(peope who will then be able to make converts) based entirely on internet learning. Yet despite the overwhelming hareidi aversion to the internet, and despite the novelty of training people to such a high level via the internet, they still have haskamot<br />http://www.shemayisrael.com/smicha/approbations.htm<br />There is nothing that you said about R' Tropper's approach that could not be equally said about the approach of this program. Considering the level of ultimate authority that will be granted to their prospective talmidim, I would thing that this has even more danger, especially in the areas that you mentioned.<br /><br />So the lack of Haskamot, is still a major issue. One must ask, if R' Tropper really does have the support of all of these Gedolim, does he fail to produce even a single haskama, even when requested and directed to do so by other Gedolim.<br /><br />To be clear Roni it is not my life purpose, nor is it my goal to smear R' Tropper or his organization. I simply want to see him produce the goods. I grow more concerned by the day that he does not.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61410090969577317912009-06-26T15:39:08.638+03:002009-06-26T15:39:08.638+03:00rONI: THE QUESTION WAS POSED TO RAP WHAT IS THE SO...rONI: THE QUESTION WAS POSED TO RAP WHAT IS THE SOURCE THAT IT IS PROHIBITED TO PROSETYZE OR ENCOURAGE INTERMARRIED COUPLES TO CONVERT<br /><br />HE OFFERED THIS AS AN ANSWER:<br /><br />"6) Since when does anyone or any group dare to do the work that the RAMBAM describes that the true Jewish Moshiach will do in the acharis hayamim of doing the kibbutz galuyos and identifying who is a Jew mong the goyim? Tropper and EJF reveal their utter arrogance and contempt for the RAMBAM's modest vision for Jews in the golus, who must not do things that should be left for the Moshiach. When Tropper proseltyizes to millions and billions of gentiles as EJF does online and in the media he opens himself up to charges of false messianism and of even being a navi sheker. Thus if individuals want to be megayer that is fine, help them as the poskim admit, but to run after them like they were prizes in an adevertising hunt, is counter anything that is done in Yiddishkeit. There are enough secular Jews to run after for kiruv, even intermarried ones who may show up ON THEIR OWN and want to be helped, but to run after them like it was a free for all turkey shoot like a chicken without a head is not and has never been something that was done in normative Yiddishkeit by any group of rabbonim ever.<br /><br />7) Finally, you know, that in the Gemora there are instances whereby there is a safek about a din, and the chazel said let's go and hear what the tinokes shel bais raban are saying in the shuk. And my suggestion to you is, why don't you and Tropper go to ANY normal yeshiva you like anywhere in the world, and explain to them exactly what it is that you are doing (NOT the part of insisting on a "universal standard" for strict conversions, that any ben Torah can agree with) but the real controversial meshuga part of the EJF agenda, the one say that shulchan oruch does "not" forbid, to proselytize by the millions or billions and to recruit any old gentiles hitched to Jews and have them come for weekened concerts, all expenses paid by EJF, and describe in detail all the wacky lomdus you have spent a lot of time trying to break everyone's arm here to swallow, and ask the rosh yeshivas, the rebbeim and the talmidim if after they have heard your krumme lomdus if (a) they agree with you, if (b) they would be willing to go out and practice it, and if (c) it sounds in any way normal to them and what a ben Torah should be thinking, doing or wanting?<br /><br />You know as well as anyone that they will throw you out on your head for your perverted krumkeit and for being megaleh ponim baTorah shelo keHalacha and that they will slap a cherem on you quicker than you can say "John or Jane Doe want to convert" for your despicable defense of EJF's chazer fislach treif GOYISHE agenda!"<br /><br />rONI: THANK YOU FOR PROVING THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER. THE WORSE IS THAT YOU ARE AM HOORETZ WHO DOES NOT EVEN KNOW THAT YOUR ANSWER IS NOT ANSWER. <br /><br />WHILE YOU ARE IT: FIND AN ANSWER WHY YOU TIHNK THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO ENABLE GOYIM TO FAKELY CONVERT THROUGH 40,000 ESSNAN ZONAH MAYBE YOU WILL ALSO FIND THIS AN ANSWER FROM YOURR TINOKOT SHEL BAIS RABBAN OR FROM YOU "MUSSAR" MOVEMENT THEY CERTAINLY STRESSED THE IMPORTANCE OF PROVIDING A CLEAN WAY TO MAKE A LIVING!<br /><br />JRONInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-862760942165078702009-06-26T15:35:43.516+03:002009-06-26T15:35:43.516+03:00thE QUESTION PRESENTED TO rap wHATIS THE hALACHIK ...thE QUESTION PRESENTED TO rap wHATIS THE hALACHIK SOURCE THAT IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PROSETYZE OR ENCOURAGE INTERMARRIED COUPLES TO COVNERT?<br /><br />RAP OFFERS THE FOLLWOING AS AN "ANSWER":<br /><br />"5) The Gemara in Chulin in Gid HaNashe when Yaakov Avinu is injured by the malach in his gid hanashe (he was actually incapable of having more children, his doros were ended), the meforshim explain, such as the Maharsha that this episode is a ma'aseh avos siman lebanim for the acharis hayamim that Esav will damage Yaakov in his doros (as we see today with the mass assimilation, intermarriage and shmad) that in the acharis hayamim there will be DOROS SHEL SHMAD, AS WE HAVE NOW IN OUR TIMES but this is not all bad because it is HKB"H's way of getting rid of the remnants of the eruv rav who may have had zechusim to be within klal Yisroel for millenia but that now their time has come to be cast off, and EJF is now arising to do the hepech of the ratzon of the hashgocha and that is why it is doomed to absolute failure. I know, you will shout that this is a a "mere" chazal, but jurisprudence is the essence of the law. Hlacha is more eidel than you portray it to be as a mechanical accumulation of this and that sefer, when in truth the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that applies to everything you say that ultimately falls flat on its face because you are so mechanistic and you miss the point that YIDDISHKEIT cannot be sovel what EJF is doing. Yes, our bobbas and zeidas (and many of them knew shas and tzene verana as well) would tear their hair out if they could get a glimpse of what Tropper says and how EJF wants to recruit billions of goyim and make them into super-duper "ultra-halachic converted robots" that listen only to one voice, that of Tropper's commands as if Yiddishkeit was some sort of Iranian Mullah state. ..."<br /><br /><br />roni: AS USUAL ZILCH NADA<br /><br />JRONInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27179414323283308062009-06-26T15:34:30.122+03:002009-06-26T15:34:30.122+03:00The question was where is the halachik source that...The question was where is the halachik source that it is prohibited to prosetyze and encourage intermarried couples to convert<br /><br />RAP offers this as an answeer:") The Jewish communal infrastructure is stretched to the limits, Orthodox Jews are barely managing, and secular Jews are taxing the Orthodox educational system with demands upon manpower and money that goes to kiruv making things tough, is this the time to proselytize to millions and billions of gentiles, when Israel can barely absorb the over 300,000 known gentiles there that is causing so much bitterness, for example?"<br /><br />Roni NO ANSWER NO ANSWER KLUM!RONInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4881473709066906432009-06-26T15:32:35.659+03:002009-06-26T15:32:35.659+03:00Let's analyze the "SOURCES" of RAP t...Let's analyze the "SOURCES" of RAP that state thatproseltyzing is ASSUR<br /><br />RAP:””IMagine that Tom Kaplan wants to be a new talmid, let alone a leader of Klal Yisroel isn't it fair to ask him and Tropper HOW MUCH was Tropper influenced by the former Christian Evangelical missionary ambitions and money of Uncle Tom Kaplan and his nephew?"<br /><br />Roni: The question IS what is the halachik soruce that it is ossur to "prosetyze" intermarried cpules or to encourage them to convert?<br /><br />ANSWER ZERO AND BOBEH MASYSSOS!<br /><br /> RAP:" 2) Can you/Tropper PROVE that the agenda and methods and game plan of EJF to proselytize are not the same as the Christian Evangelical methods that, for example, Kaplan's family were part of and practiced?"<br /><br />rONI: THE QUESTION IS AND WAS WHERE IS THE SOURCE IN HALACHA THAT IT ASSUR TO "PROSELTYZE AND TO ENCOURAGE INTERMARRIED COUPLES TO CONVERT? ANSWER NADA.<br /><br /> RAP:" 3) What will be the BENEFIT if EJF has its way and (as based on proven EJF online infomercials) and one third of humanity (that's more than TWO billion gentiles) will become Jews based on EJF's plans? Which gadol, besides Tropper thinks that this is a great idea (not the part about "universal" strict conversions, but the issue of proselytizing to millions and billions of goyim en masse)? Give as many names as you can please! "<br /><br />roNI: tHE QUESTION IS AND WAS WHAT IS THE SOURCE THAT IT IS ASSUR TO "PROSETYZE" AND ENCOURAGE INTERMARRIED COUPLES?<br /><br />aNSWER GIVEN HERE: nada zilch!ROninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43869654230202190082009-06-26T15:28:21.431+03:002009-06-26T15:28:21.431+03:00YOUR NEXT CHOLLENT TREATISE ABOUT MUSSAR AND MASKI...YOUR NEXT CHOLLENT TREATISE ABOUT MUSSAR AND MASKILIM AND PILPULEY HEVEL ABOUT THIS AND THAT DO NOT MAKE ASOURCE FOR YOUR HATRED AND OBSSESSION AT ANOTHER JEW. pROVE IT THAT WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BE ASSUR IS STATED IN *HALACHA*. <br /><br /> rap:" Not this time though, because aside from the fact that the owner of this blog is a reliable Talmid Chochem,":<br /><br />rONI: WHO HAS NOT managed to prove that this is an issur!!<br /><br />RAP:" his posek and guide in the Tropper & EJF affair is none other than Rav Moshe Shternbuch backed up by the entire BADATS,":<br /><br />ROni: who is opposed by all Posskim on this issue and they do not share his views on the issur as i have PROVEN FROM WHAT THEY WROTE AND FROM HE WROTE (KEDARKOH SHEL TORAH AND NOT KEDARKOH OF AMEY HOARATZIM WHO WRITE PAGES AND BOOKS FILLED WITH NOTHING),<br /><br />rap:" and since you are not even shamefaced enough not to try to browbeat them and twist their words, "<br /><br />rONI: prove how (not just write: "i am the owner of truth says so),<br /><br />RAP:"why should anyone else below that level feel bad when you hurl your crazy insults at them?"<br /><br />ROnI: JUST PROVE YOUR SOURCE SIMPLE AS THAT!<br /><br /> rap:"So I will answer your question in a Torah-dikke way, but my way, with some questions and reactions of my own, all from a Torah, Chazal and from pure Yiddishkeit perspective:"<br /><br />roNI: a source that deals directly with the issue and states that this is assur!roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-5009409751996779352009-06-26T15:27:49.267+03:002009-06-26T15:27:49.267+03:00rap:"Firstly, Roni, the links I provided were...rap:"Firstly, Roni, the links I provided were for the benefit of any new readers who may have been misled to think that the owner of this blog never did his homework, so yet again, I went to the bother of providing the links to the posts I found on this blog that deal with the issus of not proselytizing. Nothing more and nothing less".<br /><br />roNI: does not answer the question. Link shmink, you were asked to provide a source for an issur; you bring aggadiatic statements about the problems with gerim in general (and in your other side of the mouth you defend the honous of gerim and the acrobaatic exercise will come gushing from yout and other false critics of this blgo). Your exercise was merely to show off and to confuse the outsideer to be impressed by the "Sources" loy udbim veloyyaar: there is not one source. The links you gave from "others" were to answer the querrry: "where is THE ISSUR?<br /><br /> Your astoniosmhent at my question does not make you a the owner of the truth; your long shtussim exegesis on the dangers of "prosetyzing" does not make SOURCE FOR THE ISSUR THAT YOU MAKE IT AS A DEFINITE CLAIM!<br /><br />rAP CONTINUES TO RAMBLE: " You know, sometimes the most basic things in Yiddishkeit are NOT the result of great lomdus or of the amount of time spent in a yeshiva or how much you can talk in learning":<br /><br />a halacha and "issur" though must have a source in halacha. You cannot come up with your new testament and say that it is assur because it says so. Your next statement ". Chesed, Emunah, Bitachon, Yashrus, Sechel, Chochmah, Ahavas Yisroel, Chavivus HaMitzvos, Gevurah, Anivus, being Modeh al HaEmes, being an Ohen Shalom and a Rodef Shalom, Hasmadah, Deveikis BaShem", are ACTUALLY PART OF HALACHA I CAN SHOW YOU IN HALACHA HOW MOST OF THESE ISSUES ARE MENTIONED IN HALACHA. BUT YOU COME UP WITH A NEW TESTAMENT AND MAKE A WAR WITH OTHERS BASED ON WHAT? ON YOUR NEW TESTAMENT THAT YOU CLAIM THAT THIS IS THE GREATES TDANGER! JEWS HAVE A SHULCHAN ORUCH FOR THESE THINGS!<br /><br />YOUR NEXT CHOLLENT TREATISE ABOUT MUSSAR AND MASKILIM AND PILPULEY HEVEL ABOUT THIS AND THAT DO NOT MAKE ASOURCE FOR YOUR HATRED AND OBSSESSION AT ANOTHER JEW. pROVE IT THAT WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BE ASSUR IS STATED IN *HALACHA*.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90587713430934323842009-06-26T15:27:24.104+03:002009-06-26T15:27:24.104+03:00After two years of countless pages of hype and hyy...After two years of countless pages of hype and hyyperbole, after being shown that he copies and pastes from others does not anissur make, the krummer am hooretz attempts to use his hyperbole to make it beleif that he finally proved and answered the question:<br /><br />The question is: where is Shuclahn Or another Halachik work does it state that there is a halachik issur to proseltyze = encourage intermarried cuples to convet?<br /><br />NEITHER HE NOR THE OWNER OF THE BLOG WERE ABLE TO FIND ANY ONE WHO SAYS THAT (EXCEPT FOR RAV STERNBUCH). <br /><br />Let's us see now how he attempts to provide a soruce for the issur:<br /><br /><br />nts and Publicity said...<br /><br />RAP:" Part ONE: Seven Questions for Roni why EJF's Proselytization is Anti-Yiddishkeit."<br /><br />Roni: the QUESTION THAT YOU MUST ANSWER IS WHEREIS STATE THAT IT IS ASSUR? YET THE PEOPLE YOU SEND TO BE MEGAYER BY BOMZER YOU ARE OVAIR ANISSUR! YOU MISLEAD THEM AND KLAL YISROEL TO BRING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL AS RULED BY ALL POSSKIM. HIS "gERIM" RECONVERT IF THEY WANT TO MARRY A FRUMMER PERSON! THNAKS TO YOUR EFFORTS.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4473751420559975782009-06-26T12:37:10.469+03:002009-06-26T12:37:10.469+03:00Part ONE: Seven Questions for Roni why EJF's P...Part ONE: Seven Questions for Roni why EJF's Proselytization is Anti-Yiddishkeit.<br /><br /><br />Firstly, Roni, the links I provided were for the benefit of any new readers who may have been misled to think that the owner of this blog never did his homework, so yet again, I went to the bother of providing the links to the posts I found on this blog that deal with the issus of not proselytizing. Nothing more and nothing less.<br /><br />To claim that these posts that I linked to above were "mine" and that you then went ahead and "answred" them as if I was their originator, is a yet another grand deception and falsified distraction by you when the address for your answers and questions should be Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah who researched, composed and posted them, so that if you have any complaints, take it up with him, as he should be the one to defend his own posts.<br /><br />Now as for your question about "SAy briefly in your own words" what the problem and issur is in proselytizing to gentiles to become Jews, I am astounded that you even ask this question, as if it's a self-understood "assumption" that anyone who can cite verbiage like you must therefore also hold like you.<br /><br />You know, sometimes the most basic things in Yiddishkeit are NOT the result of great lomdus or of the amount of time spent in a yeshiva or how much you can talk in learning. Chesed, Emunah, Bitachon, Yashrus, Sechel, Chochmah, Ahavas Yisroel, Chavivus HaMitzvos, Gevurah, Anivus, being Modeh al HaEmes, being an Ohen Shalom and a Rodef Shalom, Hasmadah, Deveikis BaShem and much much more are not learned from a daf Gemora and sometimes the lamdan can be the worst baal gaava, baaal tava, shakran, rodef achar hakaavod, meisi umediach, ganev and rotzeach (just like an Esav!)<br /><br />That is why there arose the Mussar Movement to TRY TO shape up people who are suffering from a serious disconnect between their brains and their middos!<br /><br />The Maskilim of old knew how to learn better than you and look what happened to them. Noone but you on this blog seems to have any serious problems with the way I come at issues and try to analyze and solve them. You seem to think that you can pull the oldest bad stunt in the kiruv book, one of Tropper's favorite techniques, of beating down an opponent with charges of ignorance while throwing at him streams of random krumme Torah-sounding verbiage meant to intimidate the opponent into agreeing with fanaticismeven if its shtusim and in effect becoming brainwashed.<br /><br />Not this time though, because aside from the fact that the owner of this blog is a reliable Talmid Chochem, his posek and guide in the Tropper & EJF affair is none other than Rav Moshe Shternbuch backed up by the entire BADATS, and since you are not even shamefaced enough not to try to browbeat them and twist their words, why should anyone else below that level feel bad when you hurl your crazy insults at them?<br /><br />So I will answer your question in a Torah-dikke way, but my way, with some questions and reactions of my own, all from a Torah, Chazal and from pure Yiddishkeit perspective:<br /><br />1) Imagine that Tom Kaplan wants to be a new talmid, let alone a leader of Klal Yisroel isn't it fair to ask him and Tropper HOW MUCH was Tropper influenced by the former Christian Evangelical missionary ambitions and money of Uncle Tom Kaplan and his nephew?<br /><br />2) Can you/Tropper PROVE that the agenda and methods and game plan of EJF to proselytize are not the same as the Christian Evangelical methods that, for example, Kaplan's family were part of and practiced?<br /><br />3) What will be the BENEFIT if EJF has its way and (as based on proven EJF online infomercials) and one third of humanity (that's more than TWO billion gentiles) will become Jews based on EJF's plans? Which gadol, besides Tropper thinks that this is a great idea (not the part about "universal" strict conversions, but the issue of proselytizing to millions and billions of goyim en masse)? Give as many names as you can please! ..Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38443258897819712812009-06-26T12:23:56.397+03:002009-06-26T12:23:56.397+03:00Part THREE: Seven Questions for Roni...
6) Since ...Part THREE: Seven Questions for Roni...<br /><br />6) Since when does anyone or any group dare to do the work that the RAMBAM describes that the true Jewish Moshiach will do in the acharis hayamim of doing the kibbutz galuyos and identifying who is a Jew mong the goyim? Tropper and EJF reveal their utter arrogance and contempt for the RAMBAM's modest vision for Jews in the golus, who must not do things that should be left for the Moshiach. When Tropper proseltyizes to millions and billions of gentiles as EJF does online and in the media he opens himself up to charges of false messianism and of even being a navi sheker. Thus if individuals want to be megayer that is fine, help them as the poskim admit, but to run after them like they were prizes in an adevertising hunt, is counter anything that is done in Yiddishkeit. There are enough secular Jews to run after for kiruv, even intermarried ones who may show up ON THEIR OWN and want to be helped, but to run after them like it was a free for all turkey shoot like a chicken without a head is not and has never been something that was done in normative Yiddishkeit by any group of rabbonim ever.<br /><br />7) Finally, you know, that in the Gemora there are instances whereby there is a safek about a din, and the chazel said let's go and hear what the tinokes shel bais raban are saying in the shuk. And my suggestion to you is, why don't you and Tropper go to ANY normal yeshiva you like anywhere in the world, and explain to them exactly what it is that you are doing (NOT the part of insisting on a "universal standard" for strict conversions, that any ben Torah can agree with) but the real controversial meshuga part of the EJF agenda, the one say that shulchan oruch does "not" forbid, to proselytize by the millions or billions and to recruit any old gentiles hitched to Jews and have them come for weekened concerts, all expenses paid by EJF, and describe in detail all the wacky lomdus you have spent a lot of time trying to break everyone's arm here to swallow, and ask the rosh yeshivas, the rebbeim and the talmidim if after they have heard your krumme lomdus if (a) they agree with you, if (b) they would be willing to go out and practice it, and if (c) it sounds in any way normal to them and what a ben Torah should be thinking, doing or wanting? <br /><br />You know as well as anyone that they will throw you out on your head for your perverted krumkeit and for being megaleh ponim baTorah shelo keHalacha and that they will slap a cherem on you quicker than you can say "John or Jane Doe want to convert" for your despicable defense of EJF's chazer fislach treif GOYISHE agenda!Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48455983848740513642009-06-26T12:23:05.018+03:002009-06-26T12:23:05.018+03:00Part TWO: Seven Questions for Roni...
4) The Jew...Part TWO: Seven Questions for Roni...<br /><br /><br />4) The Jewish communal infrastructure is stretched to the limits, Orthodox Jews are barely managing, and secular Jews are taxing the Orthodox educational system with demands upon manpower and money that goes to kiruv making things tough, is this the time to proselytize to millions and billions of gentiles, when Israel can barely absorb the over 300,000 known gentiles there that is causing so much bitterness, for example?<br /><br />5) The Gemara in Chulin in Gid HaNashe when Yaakov Avinu is injured by the malach in his gid hanashe (he was actually incapable of having more children, his doros were ended), the meforshim explain, such as the Maharsha that this episode is a ma'aseh avos siman lebanim for the acharis hayamim that Esav will damage Yaakov in his doros (as we see today with the mass assimilation, intermarriage and shmad) that in the acharis hayamim there will be DOROS SHEL SHMAD, AS WE HAVE NOW IN OUR TIMES but this is not all bad because it is HKB"H's way of getting rid of the remnants of the eruv rav who may have had zechusim to be within klal Yisroel for millenia but that now their time has come to be cast off, and EJF is now arising to do the hepech of the ratzon of the hashgocha and that is why it is doomed to absolute failure. I know, you will shout that this is a a "mere" chazal, but jurisprudence is the essence of the law. Hlacha is more eidel than you portray it to be as a mechanical accumulation of this and that sefer, when in truth the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that applies to everything you say that ultimately falls flat on its face because you are so mechanistic and you miss the point that YIDDISHKEIT cannot be sovel what EJF is doing. Yes, our bobbas and zeidas (and many of them knew shas and tzene verana as well) would tear their hair out if they could get a glimpse of what Tropper says and how EJF wants to recruit billions of goyim and make them into super-duper "ultra-halachic converted robots" that listen only to one voice, that of Tropper's commands as if Yiddishkeit was some sort of Iranian Mullah state. ...Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48325590352450100172009-06-26T10:17:49.921+03:002009-06-26T10:17:49.921+03:00Roni: "Where is the issur of "not prosel...Roni: "Where is the issur of "not proselytizing" recorded? Where in Shluchan Oruch? Im' afraid NOWHERE. so what is bichlal the issur?"<br /><br />RAP: "So, again for the umpteenth time, this blog has long ago dealt with this in a scholarly and responsible fashion "<br /><br />Talk about amnesia there was no "scholarly" response loy miboeey by you, who has a good pen but writes empty long pages but not even Dt was able to produce a Seif in Shulchan Oruch that states that it is forbidden and the nature of the issur! (The best you yp with was a distant aruch hashulchon).<br /><br />rap: "while one spokeman after another for EJF for the last two years have only been able to come up with grumpiness anand bitterness for all the so-called krumme citations of this and that "source" which never in a thousand would have allowed the outright recruitment of gentiles hitched to Jews en masse by EJF in missionary proselyization style".<br /><br />Roni: they have no need to explain a charge that claims that there is an "issur"! There is no "issur", You bring a proof that it is "ossur" and then EJf will respond to you why they think it is permitted in their case. Your expertise is repeat the same thing as a maaleh geyroh. You have a a chance to state briefly: WHAT IS THE ISSUR OF PROSLTYZING? UYOU COULD NOT THEN AND YOU CANNOT NOW AND YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE LATER!<br /><br />SAy briefly in your own words. do not send me to the mareh mekomos. I already saw them and debunked them when you made those claims in the past. Say them briefly now.<br /><br />Btw, the sources of Rav Sternbuch: I already explained now why according to Rav Reuven FEinstein, according to his father HaRav Moshe FEinstein, HaRav Yaakov Kamenetzky, HaRav SZ Aurbach and Harav Henkin, THE CONCERNS THAT rAV sTERNBUCH RAISES ARE NOT SHARED BY THOSE rABBIS. iN SIMPLE ENGLISH THEY DISAGREE WITH HIM! tRY TO EXPLAIN TO THE HEOROS i MADE WHY YOU THINK THEY ARE WRONG AND RAV STERNBUCH IS RIGHT, BUT VERBAL TZOOH DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.<br /><br />AGAIN THE NEKUDOH: THERE IS NO "ISSUR" TO PROSELTYZE! ACCORDING TO THOSE RABBIS, YOUR SCREAMINGS NOTWITHSANDING DO NOT CHANGE THESE FACTS!<br /><br />THERE IS AN ISSUR IN BRIGNING GOYIM TO KLAL YISROEL THAT IS AN AREA WHERE YOU NEED A LOT OFXING TO DO!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70328135530556824262009-06-26T09:59:02.879+03:002009-06-26T09:59:02.879+03:00DT,
Why not post the other posts? They are respon...DT,<br /><br />Why not post the other posts? They are response to how RAp's "sources" ARE NO SOURCES FOR AN *ISsur" to prosetyze! or to sncourage conversion?<br /><br />LEt everyone see the sources. Just because there is some mussar there? there is not enough mussar for him [...] RAV REUVEN THE WAY HE DID! AND YOU AS THE OWENR OF THE BLOG ALLOWED IT!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51489444810999332602009-06-26T04:57:34.219+03:002009-06-26T04:57:34.219+03:00Tropper said:
“Further let's go back to gene...Tropper said:<br /><br /><i><br />“Further let's go back to general question: Where is the issur of "not proselytizing" recorded? Where in Shluchan Oruch? Im' afraid NOWHERE. so what is bichlal the issur?” </i><br /><br />At least now after all those years you admit you are proselytizing, so go back to r’ Reuven Feinstein and ask him to give you haskama/teshuva that permits it.the Monsey Tzadiknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29366862433368809452009-06-26T02:29:43.547+03:002009-06-26T02:29:43.547+03:00RAP,
[...] Again: The central question: a) Where...RAP,<br /><br /> [...] Again: The central question: a) Where is the *ISSUR* to prosetyze, b) to encourage conversion when they will not convert UNLESS THE PERSON IS SINCERE TO COMMIT TO TORAH AND MITZVOT BIPROTEHO! AND YES THEY WILL ACCEPT TO COVER THEIR HAIR,[...]Roninoreply@blogger.com