tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post6466094967876803278..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: The attitude of ORA and its rabbis to marriageDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50166895295041405842013-11-18T18:34:13.166+02:002013-11-18T18:34:13.166+02:00I get it, I get it. You are willing to take a soun...I get it, I get it. You are willing to take a sound bite and make of it an entire worldview. I maintain that is a simplistic way of making sense of the world. To each his own.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39619399863232199302013-11-18T14:30:25.121+02:002013-11-18T14:30:25.121+02:00http://www.yuobserver.org/2013/11/of-agunot-and-yo...http://www.yuobserver.org/2013/11/of-agunot-and-yoatzot-shifting-a-paradigm-of-powerlessness/<br />Rabbi Jeremy Stern, Executive Director at the Organization for the Resolution of Agunot (ORA), said in a recent interview, “In abuse, there’s no other side. Abuse is never justified.” Refusing to give a get is a form of abuse.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90190830766159624182013-11-15T01:50:26.200+02:002013-11-15T01:50:26.200+02:00I think I'll let all those ounce-brain folks o...I think I'll let all those ounce-brain folks out there decide for themselves. One of us is putting out evidence and rational commentary. The other one is launching insults. <br /><br />Good luck winning folks to your point of view.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64181766314257119632013-11-15T01:49:11.141+02:002013-11-15T01:49:11.141+02:00You are aware that you are using an archived websi...You are aware that you are using an <i>archived</i> website, right? The <i>current </i>website doesn't say that. Instead - as I already posted - it says "While historically the term agunah referred almost exclusively to a woman whose husband was lost at war or sea and could not issue her a get, today, the term is most often associated with the plight of a woman whose husband refuses to issue her a get as a means of extortion or emotional abuse."<br /><br />Sounds like they have "backed off" - or perhaps just clarified - their position.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80271825986243081922013-11-14T15:39:54.260+02:002013-11-14T15:39:54.260+02:00@Raffi - You are obviously an ORA troll and your i...@Raffi - You are obviously an ORA troll and your intellectual dishonesty is really pathetic. Anyone with an ounce of brains can see right through your bogus attempts to deny, obfuscate, and cover-up the plain truth here. <br /><br />Stern's statements and the unscrubbed statements on ORA's website are both clearly promoting the O-RAH agenda of feminist divorce on demand, contrary to HALACHA.EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18206831080991595922013-11-14T15:06:24.304+02:002013-11-14T15:06:24.304+02:00@EmesLeYaacovNovember noted from ORA's website...@EmesLeYaacovNovember noted from ORA's website. <br /><br />"An agunah is a woman whose husband refuses to grant her a Jewish divorce upon request."<br />http://web.archive.org/web/20050130200043/http://getora.org/<br /><br />Neither Jeremy Stern or ORA has ever backed off this position.<br />Indeed, in his Newsday article above. Stern claims that not giving a get when requested is domestic abuse. period.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64054843010292780022013-11-14T15:01:59.620+02:002013-11-14T15:01:59.620+02:00ORA supports women who have kidnapped their childr...ORA supports women who have kidnapped their children, and it thus seems that ORA is actively encouraging this type of behavior.<br />There are at least three specific examples on this blog, and so it would not be surprising if there are many more: Dodelson, Epstein, and Gelernter.<br /><br />Dodelson - boasts of just unilaterally taking the child to her parent's house in the NY Post<br />Epstein - court finding (as well as Epstein admission in her court filings) that she abducted the child<br />Gelernter - condemned in US Congress for kidnapping the children; Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77517071801748266422013-11-14T06:13:47.522+02:002013-11-14T06:13:47.522+02:00I said, "I can think of many cases where relo...I said, "I can think of many cases where relocating with a child is the proper course of action. Of course, this is not true of all, or even most cases."<br /><br />You said, "So you have changed your mind and it is now OK for a mother to kidnap a child so long as she doesn't completely prevent the child from seeing the father . . . ?"<br /><br />I really don't see how your conclusion follows from my statement.<br /><br />At any rate, once again it is not relevant what my personal beliefs are. You claim that "It is clearly ORA's position that anyone who wants a get is entitled to an unconditional get." You have yet to provide any sort of evidence to back this up.<br /><br />You have also repeatedly implied that ORA values children very little and money a lot more; but the only support you have for that claim is a single quote taken out of context to make it sound the way you want.<br /><br />All I'm asking you to do is provide evidence for any of the claims you have made that justify the vilification of this organization. (To be fair, your statements have been less hateful and inflammatory than others', but you still appear to take issue with ORA for positions they do not hold.)Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-36056260288834719622013-11-14T01:28:45.832+02:002013-11-14T01:28:45.832+02:00Dodelson alleges in her New York Post that she sim...Dodelson alleges in her New York Post that she simply relcoated the child to her parent's house. Although she makes all manner of accusations against Weiss, she does not claim that either she or the child were in any danger. <br />Again, Dodelson does not claim that she attempted to have Weiss go to beis din or court to adjudicate whether she could relocate the child. She asserts that she just did it. <br />You are now saying that is perfectly acceptable?Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4468854492961050602013-11-14T01:26:36.078+02:002013-11-14T01:26:36.078+02:00So you have changed your mind and it is now OK for...So you have changed your mind and it is now OK for a mother to kidnap a child so long as she doesn't completely prevent the child from seeing the father and allows "visitation" for the child and father on her terms?Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18940262353653934312013-11-13T18:31:19.737+02:002013-11-13T18:31:19.737+02:00Where does Stern say that a woman deserves a get &...Where does Stern say that a woman deserves a get "no matter why she demands one"? You are putting those words in his mouth.<br /><br />The one million dollars vs. one child is a red herring. He clearly is not implying that one million dollars is worth more than a child. You are twisting his words to make it work for you. It's just plain dishonest.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14412966477465124332013-11-13T18:29:35.529+02:002013-11-13T18:29:35.529+02:00Most? Probably? So not only do you really not have...Most? Probably? So not only do you really not have any facts to support your claim, you are once again trying to throw things off topic. (The Post issue has nothing to do with ORA's position.) <br /><br />You have been trying to claim that ORA is in favor of divorce on demand and has no concern for the institution of marriage. Pointing out that ORA doesn't preserve marriages doesn't do that since the women (and men) who come to ORA are well past the point of wanting to keep the marriage, so it is obvious that ORA doesn't have any saved marriages under its belt. If someone came personally to Rabbi Stern asking WHETHER he thinks she should get divorced, he might very well encourage her not to. (In fact, I imagine that's likely since he knows so well the horrors of divorce.) You are painting him as someone who would not do that when in fact you have no evidence for that, because ORA as an organization is not a place one goes to ask such a question.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50731166035315481472013-11-13T18:23:43.363+02:002013-11-13T18:23:43.363+02:00I can think of many cases where relocating with a ...I can think of many cases where relocating with a child is the proper course of action. Of course, this is not true of all, or even most cases. Whether this is such a case I can't tell you since I don't really know what things were like inside that house. Furthermore, according to the Dodelson camp, there were no attempts to cut the child off from his father. Again, whether that's true or not I don't know. But again, if ORA believes that, whether here or in the Epstein case, then they are not supporting kidnapping; they are supporting what they believe are appropriate measures, including allowing visitation, etc. And once again, if you'd like to assert that they DON'T in fact believe any of that, that they really know that it was all-out abduction and that they are in favor of gneivas nefashos, you will have to demonstrate that that is the case. Sitting next to someone they BELIEVE has done something that is NOT kidnapping doesn't do that.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69548200828256444452013-11-13T17:05:36.859+02:002013-11-13T17:05:36.859+02:00typo: meant New York Post. sorry.
Doldeson hersel...typo: meant New York Post. sorry.<br /><br />Doldeson herself asserts in the New York Post that she picked up then and there and relocated the child to her parent's house. She doesn't say she asked the child's other parent if that would be OK. She just acted unilaterally.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70659905267150219622013-11-13T16:00:42.605+02:002013-11-13T16:00:42.605+02:00In addition, in the video Stern is standing next t...In addition, in the video Stern is standing next to Tamar Epstein, whose kidnapping of a child Stern has repeatedly supported.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48507001523229527832013-11-13T15:58:41.625+02:002013-11-13T15:58:41.625+02:00Doldeson herself asserts in the New York Times tha...Doldeson herself asserts in the New York Times that she picked up then and there and relocated the child to her parent's house. She doesn't say she asked the child's other parent if that would be OK. She just acted unilaterally.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70433930504346696892013-11-13T15:56:26.254+02:002013-11-13T15:56:26.254+02:00Most rabbonim who specialize in writing gittin pro...Most rabbonim who specialize in writing gittin probably try to encourage reconcilation, rather than running out of a marriage with a child and then running to the New York Post to generally besmirch Orthodox Judaism.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84807221308479253462013-11-13T15:54:58.136+02:002013-11-13T15:54:58.136+02:00Stern doesn't say that a woman is entitled to ...Stern doesn't say that a woman is entitled to a get just in cases of domestic abuse. Stern says that not giving a get to a woman [no matter why she demands one, or what behavior she engages in to leave the marrage] is itself domestic abuse that can NEVER be justified. <br />The ONLY exception Stern recognizes is for a woman who steals one million dollars. Those are his words, not mine. Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-40129313659103779042013-11-13T04:35:32.090+02:002013-11-13T04:35:32.090+02:00The Dodelson camp claims that "The Statement ...The Dodelson camp claims that "The Statement claims that his child was withheld from him. This is false. In fact, there was a disagreement about visitation arrangements and the Dodelsons had begged that they go to an impartial Rov to resolve the dispute, which the Weisses refused to do."<br /><br />Let us note well that it is NOT RELEVANT if this is true or not; what is relevant for the purposes of this specific discussion is that the Dodelsons - and ORA - BELIEVE it is true. This is important because it means that they are not supporting the abduction of a child; they are supporting what they believe is reasonable behavior, which does NOT include kidnapping. (Of course, it is alternatively possible that they are all lying, believe that kidnapping is A-OK, and are trying to destroy Orthodox Judaism from within. But again, I believe the burden of proof is on those of you who wish to demonstrate this.)Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3420014005911864352013-11-13T04:29:17.190+02:002013-11-13T04:29:17.190+02:00I don't understand you. He says domestic abuse...I don't understand you. He says domestic abuse is never justified. That means if a woman is suffering from domestic abuse, she is entitled to a get. I don't see how that is problematic in any way. Maybe if a woman FALSELY claims there is abuse she should not be immediately entitled to a get - but I don't hear him saying that she is even in that case.<br /><br />The one million dollars vs. one child is a red herring. He clearly is not implying that one million dollars is worth more than a child. You are twisting his words to make it work for you. It's just plain dishonest.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17076238000240251292013-11-12T15:49:09.187+02:002013-11-12T15:49:09.187+02:00http://www.newsweek.com/divorce-orthodox-jewish-co...http://www.newsweek.com/divorce-orthodox-jewish-community-can-be-brutal-degrading-and-endless-3082<br />“Get refusal is a form of domestic abuse, and domestic abuse is never justified,”<br />Stern does not qualify this statement in any way. Anyone who demands a get is entitled to one, no matter what the circumstances, according to Stern (the only exception being stealing one million dollars - although not one child).Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67842779691108645732013-11-12T13:32:25.414+02:002013-11-12T13:32:25.414+02:00"The other possibility is that they believe s...<br />"The other possibility is that they believe she had every reason to run off with the child in tow. In fact, they have made statements to that effect"<br /><br /><br />what exactly are you referring to in claiming? What statements have they made?Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73403979319206570792013-11-12T03:46:35.458+02:002013-11-12T03:46:35.458+02:00You are implying that ORA believes that abducting ...You are implying that ORA believes that abducting a child without reason is a perfectly normal thing to do. The other possibility is that they believe she had every reason to run off with the child in tow. In fact, they have made statements to that effect. So, once again, you have yet to provide any evidence for your position. You are just making assumptions that are in line with your position and then using them as proof.<br /><br />I am all ears, friends. If you can provide me with evidence that ORA believes what you say it does, I will join you in your condemnations. But nobody on this blog has yet succeeded in doing so.Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-63296303540721856222013-11-12T03:43:59.141+02:002013-11-12T03:43:59.141+02:00One of us is using ad hominem attacks and name-cal...One of us is using ad hominem attacks and name-calling. The other one (that's me) is asking for evidence and explanation. Which one is a troll now?<br /><br />I imagine that that definition was removed from the website because it led people to believe that they thought anyone who wants a get automatically is an agunah, which is not their position (unless you have evidence to the contrary?). Here is a quote from their updated answer to the FAQ, "What is an agunah?":<br /><br /><i>While historically the term agunah referred almost exclusively to a woman whose husband was lost at war or sea and could not issue her a get, today, the term is most often associated with the plight of a woman whose husband refuses to issue her a get as a means of extortion or emotional abuse.</i>Raffihttp://www.frumcounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14996271215210271972013-11-12T00:06:31.002+02:002013-11-12T00:06:31.002+02:00@Raffi - You and all the other ORA trolls here can...@Raffi - You and all the other ORA trolls here cannot kasher and whitewash ORA. ORA's perverse anti-family, anti-father, anti-Torah ideology was displayed right on their website until recently:<br /><br /><b>"An agunah is a woman whose husband refuses to grant her a Jewish divorce upon request."</b><br />http://web.archive.org/web/20050130200043/http://getora.org/EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.com