tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post6293333435891234980..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rav Kook suggested studying kabbala in Telz YeshivaDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77244042397177002852014-04-24T11:03:18.636+03:002014-04-24T11:03:18.636+03:00Rabbi Abraham Abulafia affirms the possibility of ...Rabbi Abraham Abulafia affirms the possibility of the Guide and Sefer Yetzirah being brought into synthesis by exploiting Maimonides resort to Hebrew letter permutation in his exegesis: <br /><br />Wonderful... is the intimation aroused through the use of a certain term whose letters are identical with those of another term; solely the order of the letters is changed; and between the two terms there is in no way an etymological connection or a community of meaning... Through this method very strange things appear, which are likewise secrets... If you carefully examine each passage in your mind, they will become clear to you - after your attention has been aroused - from the gist of what has been set forth here (2:43, Pines translation p.392-3). <br /><br />Indeed Maimonides seems to be giving a directive to employ this technique elsewhere as he has done (cf. 3:2, Pines p.417-22). <br />Rabbi Abulafia does claim in the introduction to Sitrei Torah, his most important commentary on the Guide, that he is privy to an oral tradition concerning the number of chapters contained in the Guide. Rabbi Abulafia states that the 177 chapters point toward the numerical value of גן עדן which Rabbi Abulafia understands as a psychological state. He further subdivides the number 177 into 26, 65, and 86 which are each one the numerical value of the divine names YHWH, Adonai and Elokim.www.thenutgarden.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01941575755686521576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-682782723919870222013-01-18T13:23:49.189+02:002013-01-18T13:23:49.189+02:00"BR said...And after Rav Chazkel came Rav Cha..."BR said...And after Rav Chazkel came Rav Chaim Friedlander.."<br /><br />And you compare and equate Rav Chaim Friedlander with Rav Chazkel Levenshteyn??? Good joke. No one knows how to learn or give, or take, Mussar today. It is a dead field really, Chaisidism on the other hand has won. You see this is part of the problem, it's called "YERIDAS HADOROS" ("the decline of the generations") pure and simple. Just as the secular world wants "Kabbalah Centres" and "Chabad Houses" that give out "placebo information" that goes nowhere and does nothing and has no tachlis (well it does raise lots of money for the people who run them promising "miracles" with waters and red strings and visits to graves), likewise, "azoy vie es kristalt zach azoy yidelt zach" ("the way it goes with the goyim-Chritsina, so it also goes with the Jews") meaning "monkey see-monkey do" and this is not a "ma'aleh" it is a "chisaron" in the dor, our own DOR YOSOM full with yesomim who are ignorant about what the mesorah is! <br /><br />Another factor is that the growth of the Chasidisha velt has impacted the Litvish yeshivisha velt in all ways. The wearing of dark suits, the growth of more beards, taking on of more chumras, making rosehi yeshiva into "chasidisha rebbes" so it is no wonder that some talmidim want "Chasidus" like spoiled kids who are not happy with hunting for a piece of dry bread and water like in the old days but now <i>neeeeeeeeed</i> sugary cereals and hot cocoa spoon fed to them. <br /><br />Yeridas Hadoros my friend! <br /><br />Then you have all sorts of kids from ba'alei teshuva families, and non-conformists, dreamers and seekers in the bais hamedrash who are BORED they just don't get the mental stimulation they need from regular Gemora learning that in past generations lasted for a lifetime. Now in the era of 1,000+ channel TVs and I-Phones with instant access to the speedy Internet, people, including yeshiva bochurim want ENTERTAINMENT, instant gratification for them is just as much a need as it is for the world outside, and they think they can get it from "Kabbala" or such things when they are deluding themselves. By way of example: Just like you will always need a CONVENTIONAL education and degree from a top university to become a great and competent lawyer, doctor, accountant, scientist etc (would you go to a doctor who went to a university that taught only poetry and music? or to lawyer who only studied botany and lived on a farm for his training? or an accountant who is not good at math?), you will always need the CONVENTIONAL education from good yeshivas to become a top rov, maggid shiur, posek, dayan and even a great daf yomi balebos! And all the other hocus-pocus won't help you because its' basically VAIBISH! <br /><br />Of course, you can choose to live like a Chasidisha Yid, but then why are you going to a Litvisha yeshiva?! Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22983943372860357062013-01-17T00:35:35.153+02:002013-01-17T00:35:35.153+02:00I see somebody stated that the Morech Nevuchim is ...I see somebody stated that the Morech Nevuchim is in Cherem. Now, it is true that Rabbeinu Yona and other French gedolim did attack the sefer HaMoreh of the Rambam and I think they wrote on his grave "MIN" but after the government of France burned all of the Seforim in France, Rabbeinu Yona realized his error and wrote Shaarei Teshuva. I have a sefer about Reb Elchonon that quotes him when he quotes from Moreh Nevuchim. A Mekubol in the past generation told me that there are three phases of Cabala, and the Moreh Nevuchim is the first level, followed by the two Cabalists in Tsevas, Reb Moshe Kordeveero and then the Ari z"l. In Olam HaBo someone said that everyone learns Cabala like the Ari z"l.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73417669493602730462013-01-17T00:30:39.566+02:002013-01-17T00:30:39.566+02:00And after Rav Chazkel came Rav Chaim Friedlander w...And after Rav Chazkel came Rav Chaim Friedlander who used RaMCHaL (Derech Hashem) and Rav Dessler as his foundations and is quite popular. BRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65883106832055223012013-01-16T19:04:37.345+02:002013-01-16T19:04:37.345+02:00@RaP - "the RAMBAM approved of close to or ev...@RaP - "the RAMBAM approved of close to or even more than 99% of what Aristotle wrote"<br /><br />As far as Moreh Nevuchim, your statement is very much in error. MN disputes Aristotle on many fundamental issues.<br /><br />On the contrary, when one learns Moreh Nevuchim nowadays, its astounding how some of the most advanced modern cosmological principles, (completely unknown to Aristotle and the medieval scientists), will leap off the pages of a sefer written in the Middle Ages. <br /><br />MN is an extremely profound hidden treasure that a modern Jew can use effectively to understand Torah monotheism, Torah ethics, and advanced cosmological principles from a Torah perspective.<br /><br />I also believe, based on my understanding of Rav Triebetz's shiurim on hashkafacircle.com, that MN is the foundation for the Vilna Gaon's kabbalistic - rationalist philosophy.<br /><br />See <br />http://hashkafacircle.com/shiurim/category/vilna-gaon-shiurim/<br />EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18814214093431276952013-01-16T15:06:41.406+02:002013-01-16T15:06:41.406+02:00"RaP: the fact that the Moreh Nevuchim is in ..."RaP: the fact that the Moreh Nevuchim is in a virtual "cherem" has no connection to what is the accepted norm with regards to the RAMBAN, and it has NOTHING to do with being a feel good or feel bad book or what people want to read or not."<br /><br />truth be told, i have little inside knowledge as to what goes on inside litvishe yeshivot or chassidic or sefardi. i can't comment on them. i can say that very few guys in hesder or stam srugi ba'al habatim, people who min ha'stam couldn't care less about some ancient cherem (like moi), don't learn the guide. and IMO, it is for the reasons i stated. Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79961494672283969412013-01-16T15:03:51.194+02:002013-01-16T15:03:51.194+02:00i have no doubt that rav shach would have given an...i have no doubt that rav shach would have given an entirely different reason as to why tanya isn't learned.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53648636234465198572013-01-16T14:27:50.549+02:002013-01-16T14:27:50.549+02:00Many different issues will bring back assimilated ...Many different issues will bring back assimilated or secular Jews. Note that Chabad / Breslov work on mystical stuff; Litvish yeshivot attract many to Talmudic studies; Dati Leumi/Kook type yeshivot work on things like nationalism, zionism as atchalta d'geula, settling our own land; some people are frustrated with evil secualr (zionism) so they choose to be the opposite, eg Satmar, NK types; Shas works on restoring the former glory of Sephardic heritage, and brings back many that way. A famous story of Rav Soloveitchik about 2 agnostics who came to hear him deliver a shiur, were so impressed by his genius, they decided to do teshuva.<br /><br /> Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-513473772744281692013-01-16T14:14:12.665+02:002013-01-16T14:14:12.665+02:00To Ben Waxman:
See also: "Solomon ben Abraha...To Ben Waxman:<br /><br />See also: "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_of_Montpellier" rel="nofollow">Solomon ben Abraham of Montpellier: Conflict with Maimonides</a> When Ibn Tibbon's translation of the Moreh Nebukim became known in southern France, it was freely accepted by the liberal Jews; but the strictly orthodox, who adhered firmly to the Talmud, regarded it askance and secretly condemned it. No one, however, dared to express open disapproval of the study of this book until Solomon threw down the gauntlet to the Maimonists. It would be natural to infer from this proceeding, which divided Judaism into two hostile camps, that Solomon had had a philosophical training which enabled him to recognize the import of Maimonides' ideas, and the contradictions existing between the latter's conception of Judaism and that of the Talmud.<br /><br />Luzzatto argued that Solomon, while a prominent Talmudic authority and of pious, upright character, took up the quarrel with the best intentions but was unable to comprehend Maimonides' views correctly, and had no idea of a philosophical conception of Judaism. He attacked Maimonides on minor, incidental points, e.g., for his refusal to take the aggadic opinions of the Talmud in their simple, often offensive, literal sense; for his explanation of many miracles by means of natural processes; for his description of paradise and hell in other than aggadic colors; and for his conception of the Godhead on other than anthropomorphic lines...Solomon knew enough, however, to understand that single-handed he would be powerless to make headway against Maimonides' great authority, which prevailed even after his death, and against his numerous adherents. He therefore sought allies; but his demands for the interdiction of scientific studies found little support <b>among the scholars of southern France, only two of his pupils, Jonah ben Abraham Gerondi (Nahmanides' relative) and David ben Saul, joining him. These three pronounced (in the beginning of the year 1232) a sentence of excommunication on Maimonides' works, on those who studied them, and on those who construed the Scripture otherwise than literally and interpreted the Aggadah at variance with Rashi. Several rabbis of northern France subsequently confirmed this sentence.</b>..."<br /><br />"years ago, an acquaintance wrote to rav shach tz"l, asking him why they don't learn the kuzari in ponovich. the rav's answer: they didn't learn in in the european ponovich. ze hu.<br />Reply"<br /><br />RaP: You have provided the greatest expression for the fact that the mainstream Litvish yeshivas do not learn Kuzari, nor do they learn Moreh Nevuchim, nor Tanya no any works of Chasidus. <br /><br />Very few even allow the learning of Maharal but it has krept in, mainly due to the influence of Rav Yitzchok Hutner's multi-volume Pachad Yitzchok works, but even that is not part of any mainstream yeshiva curriculum. Even in Rav Hutner's own yeshivas, the study of his works the Pachad Yitzchok is not encouraged for the majority of talmidim but rather left to the most senior and seasoned experts to delve into, let alone expound. <br /><br />So Rav Shach was being brilliant because when you don't give ANY "reasons" and just state it is PRECEDENT then that is the true MESORA and there is nothing to argue or debate about. It is what it is, and the the fact remains that the Kuzari is not part of any mainstream yeshiva curriculum, just as Tanach is not part of that curriculum either, and the Tanach is greater than the Kuzari, yet the mesorah is NOT to learn it as part of a seder. Feel free to learn it on your own, or as part of a special group, but it is not part of the everyday learning that focuses on Gemora and its meforshim as found today in the various "kovetz' volumes!Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17590365097619685192013-01-16T14:13:06.315+02:002013-01-16T14:13:06.315+02:00"Ben Waxman said...rebbe nachman had lots of ..."Ben Waxman said...rebbe nachman had lots of problems with the guide and with philosophy in general. rebbe nachman believed in a personal relationship with God, hashgacha pratit; the rambam thought that was almost unobtainable. the differences in thought between the two are legion.<br /><br />how a relatively minor admor like rebbe nachman (WADR) can be used as a source against the rambam, gadol of all the dorot, by anyone seriously versed in Torah, is beyond me."<br /><br />RaP: Rebe Nachman had his own reasons for objecting to the RAMBAM's Moreh Nevuchim, and its in keeping with ALL Chasidus that utterly REJECTS a philosophic approach and method to thinking and expressing Torah ideas. <br /><br />What we are talking about here is that way before Rebbe Nachman and the Chasidim came along in the 1700s, <b>four hundred years earlier</b>, it was the scholastic Talmudist Chachomim and Rabbonim of France-Provence-Askenaz who decided to fight an ideological war against the philosophic Aristotelian-loving Rabbonim of Spain-Iberia-North Africa, that exploded in the early 1200s. <br /><br />Among others the famous Raabbeinu Yona was involved, first as an opponent of the RAMBAM, then seeing the extremes he changed sides, but this is just a fragment of what transpired: (From Wikipedia): "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonah_Gerondi#Biography" rel="nofollow">Yonah Gerondi came from Girona, in Catalonia</a>. Gerondi was the most prominent pupil of Solomon of Montpellier, the leader of the opponents of Maimonides' philosophical works, and was one of the signers of the ban proclaimed in 1233 against the Moreh Nevukim and the Sefer ha-Madda. According to his pupil, Hillel of Verona, Gerondi was the instigator of the public burning of Maimonides' writings by order of the authorities at Paris in 1233, and the indignation which this aroused among all classes of Jews was mainly directed against him. Subsequently (not forty days afterward, as a tradition has it, but in 1242; see note 5 to H. Grätz, Geschichte, vol. vii.), when twenty-four wagon-loads of Talmuds were burned at the same place where the philosophical writings of Maimonides had been destroyed, Gerondi saw the folly and danger of appealing to Christian ecclesiastical authorities on questions of Jewish doctrine, and publicly admitted in the synagogue of Montpellier that he had been wrong in all his acts against the works and fame of Maimonides."Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25576469044237008262013-01-16T14:11:22.328+02:002013-01-16T14:11:22.328+02:00"Ben Waxman said...i've learned the moreh..."Ben Waxman said...i've learned the moreh. no one goes near it because the aristotelian philosophy is out of sync with modern thinking and has been for hundreds of years."<br /><br />RaP: You mean to say that the general language and presentation as well as the Aristotelian philosophy in the Moreh Nevuchim is hard to study, just as astrophysics or neurosurgery is tough to study, but it's not "out of sync" with modern times. What you mean to say is that modern minds are basically pea-brained and lack the core brainpower needed to study and understand a serious work of religious philosophy that is also quasi-mystical. <br /><br />"people barely learn the ramban,"<br /><br />RaP: Indeed dthey do, in the yeshiva velt the RAMBA<b>N</b> is referenced to and learned all the time. While many of the kisvei RAMBA<b>N</b> are not studied, especially his debates against the apostate Jew Pablo Christiani and his work to bring peace between the Maimonidean rationalists of Spain and the scholastic Talmudists France, or his aims about making Aliya as the first modern Zionist -- and yes, the RAMBAN is one of the first modern Mekubbalim as well as is well known -- yet, the RAMBA<b>N</b>'s Talmudic commentaries are part and parcel of every-day learning in the Litvish yeshiva velt and his commentaries on the Chumash are part of learning and divrei Torah related to any serious learning conncted to Parshas HaShavua. Most Rabbonim quote the RAMBA<b>N</b> in serious droshas and shiurim berabim on Shabbos and during the week, while no one quotes the RAMBA<b>M</b>'s Moreh Nevuchim (if they did it would raise eyebrows!), only the RAMBA<b>M</b>'s Mishneh Torah is allowed to be part of the seder halimud hayomi. <br /><br />"you expect them to learn the guide? its long, it isn't a feel good book, who today is going to read something like that?"<br /><br />RaP: the fact that the Moreh Nevuchim is in a virtual "cherem" has no connection to what <b>is</b> the accepted norm with regards to the RAMBA<b>N</b>, and it has NOTHING to do with being a feel good or feel bad book or what people want to read or not.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89418086590056873302013-01-16T13:28:15.720+02:002013-01-16T13:28:15.720+02:00"Mordechai Y. Scher said...I feel a need to c..."Mordechai Y. Scher said...I feel a need to comment here...I spent most of a decade there, and I doubt much has changed in regard to limud emunah since I left Yerushalayim in '89. So a few points..."<br /><br />Yasher Koach for your very informative and very special first-hand description of what you experienced and what went on. Very, very helpful and much appreciated. Thank you so much.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48000961218111096722013-01-16T13:22:59.154+02:002013-01-16T13:22:59.154+02:00Re: RAMBAM:
In fact there is an old mesorah that ...Re: RAMBAM:<br /><br />In fact there is an old mesorah that the Greek philosophy of Aristotle was actually nothing but plagiarized from the "Sefer Chochma" as well as other Seforim of various chochmas that were lost when the First Bais HaMikdosh and Eretz Yisroel were looted and pillaged and that had belonged to Shlomo Hamelech, who was the wisest of all men ever, even greater than Moshe Rabbeinu. There are interesting discussions about Shlomo's Sefer HaRefuah as well. That was also part of his great effort to bring that long lost heritage back to life and thereby win over the hundreds of thousands of assimilating Jews who were leaving Judaism to join the Islamic Aristotelian ruling classes and aristocracy that ruled Spain and North Africa during the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain" rel="nofollow">Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain</a> (711-1492 CE), see interestingly the partial list on Wikipedia of some <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain#Notable_figures" rel="nofollow">Notable figures of this golden age</a>:<br /><br />*Abu al-Fadl ibn Hasda, philosopher, vizier at Zaragosa<br />*Abu Ruiz ibn Dahri fought in the war against the Almohades.<br />*Amram ben Isaac ibn Shalbib, scholar and diplomat in the service of Alfonso VI of Castile<br />*Bahya ibn Paquda, philosopher and author of Chovot ha-Levavot<br />*Bishop Bodo-Eleazar; according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "a convert to Judaism ... [who]... went to Córdoba, where he is said to have endeavored to win proselytes for Judaism from among the Spanish Christians."<br />*Dunash ben Labrat (920-990), poet<br />*Isaac ibn Albalia, astronomer and rabbi at Granada<br />*Jekuthiel ibn Hasan, king's minister at Zaragosa, fell from favor, executed<br />*Joseph ibn Hasdai, poet, father of Abu al-Fadl ibn Hasdai<br />*Joseph ibn Migash, diplomat for Granada<br />*Maimonides, rabbi, physician, and philosopher<br />*Menahem ben Saruk<br />*Michael Servetus, Jewish converso, astronomer, physician, theologian, cartographer, translator, poet, mathematician and humanist, at Tudela.<br />*Solomon Ibn Gabirol, poet and philosopher<br />*Moses ben Enoch<br />*Yehuda Halevi, poet and philosopher<br />*Abraham ibn Ezra, rabbi and poet<br />*Moses ibn Ezra, philosopher and poet<br />*Benjamin of Tudela, traveler and explorer<br />*Samuel Ha-Nagid ibn Nagrela, king's minister and poet<br />*Hasdai ibn Shaprut, royal physician and statesman<br />*Judah ben Saul ibn Tibbon"<br /><br />P.S.<br /><br />The debate of what keeps in the fold "FFB" Jews, as well as "brings back" lost assimilated Jews is still with us today, some would say it is rationalism and philosophizing-machshava, as found in the Kuzari type arguments, others say it has to be scholasticism and Talmudics-lomdus and other says it must be mysticism, Kabbalah and Chasidism. There is no resolution at the present time. Time will tell.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12921949747906757562013-01-16T13:22:41.155+02:002013-01-16T13:22:41.155+02:00EmesLeYaacov said...@R. Tzadok - "It was his ...EmesLeYaacov said...<i>@R. Tzadok - "It was his elevation of Aristotle and Aristotelian philosophy that got him into trouble"</i><br /><br />I like most of your comment about the Moreh. However, <b>the Rambam was an incredible genius who actually challenged many erroneous Aristotelian ideas</b> in Moreh Nevuchim."<br /><br />Not sure what the percentages were, but supposedly the RAMBAM approved of close to or even more than 99% of what Aristotle wrote about (maybe a bit more or less) and yes, the RAMBAM did refute some of Aristotle's contentions, the greatest one being that the RAMBAM totally rejected the notion of a "removed" God from Nature in keeping with the Torah view that Hashem is not some "force" that has created the universe that then lets' the universe run on "automatic pilot" with hardly any intervention from the Divine. Unlike Aristotle, the RAMBAM insisted on what we would call "hashgocha pratis" (exactly what kind is disputed between rationalists and mystics) but nevertheless this was probably the key difference with Aristotle's views, otherwise almost all else that Aristotle wrote about, based on his incredible powers of logic and reason -- i.e. as the embodiment of CHOCHMA (viz: <b>yesh</b> chochma <b>bagoyim</b>!) and the culmination of "the beauty of Yefet dwelling in the tents of Shem" per the Torah's brocha in Breishis "יַפְתְּ אֱלֹהִים לְיֶפֶת, וְיִשְׁכֹּן בְּאָהֳלֵי-שֵׁם" Genesis 9:27, the RAMBAM not only agreed with but also adopted, adapted and tried to popularize to show that Judaism and the best of Greek philosophy as expressed by Aristotle were in harmony and agreement. Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20552869429215267512013-01-16T13:02:03.859+02:002013-01-16T13:02:03.859+02:00Re: Gerhardt Scholem: I am suggesting that had he ...Re: Gerhardt Scholem: I am suggesting that had he benefited from having rabbinical upbringing, he may have been a Gadol. There are members big Rabbinical familes who became either secular or entered academic life, and became professors. I remember a story that Rav Shach had great hope for his son to be a big Talmid Hacham - since he obviously had the intellectual capacity. Instead he became Professor Shach. Had he become a Rosh Yeshiva, he may have been a successor to his father.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68552403610425732322013-01-16T12:58:38.888+02:002013-01-16T12:58:38.888+02:00Mordechai, you are quite right. My point was -and ...Mordechai, you are quite right. My point was -and you have confirmed this - that the proposed system of learning for telz was actualised in RAY Kook's own Universal Yeshiva.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69242736541120795582013-01-16T12:52:48.392+02:002013-01-16T12:52:48.392+02:00The third part of the MN ( reasons of mitzvot) is ...The third part of the MN ( reasons of mitzvot) is sometimeslearned... the ishbitzer rebbi wrote a פירוש al pi kabbalah<br />2) r kook wore תפילין all day at volozin yeshiva even though the RY rav chaim soloveichik told him not to.<br />3) at first g scholem held the זהר drom the תנאים... only later. He changed his mind.tziki kedaranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35381494776929239982013-01-16T12:43:25.154+02:002013-01-16T12:43:25.154+02:00"cvmay said...Many yeshivos and certainly Mer..."cvmay said...Many yeshivos and certainly Mercaz Harav learn Kuzari."<br /><br />RaP: Which yeshivas do so formally? None of the big-time mainstream Litvish ones that's for sure where the learning of Mussar is the greatest "concession" that's added to the full-time curriculum of Gemora with meforshim learning (except in Brisk-influenced yeshivas, since Brisk is anti-Mussar too!) Otherwise, <i>machshava</i>. ("Jewish thought-philosophy"), as represented by the Kuzari is totally ignored (perhaps in some Baal Teshuva yeshivas it is taught to lure the students in to the yeshivish velt). <br /><br />There is a famous story that after Rav Eliyahu Dessler was niftar, since he was a famous ba'al machshava and even knew Maharal and kabbalah, his successor at Ponevezh as mashgiach ruchani, Rav Chatzkel Levenstein openly stated that he was going to be "oker" (uproot) the work and approach of Rav Dessler in favor of the classical teaching and preaching of Mussar, and that is exactly what happened, as Rav Dessler's approach was forgotten at Ponevezh yeshiva.<br /><br />Posthumously Rav Dessler's thoughts were published as "Michtav Me'Eliyau" and they were very popular for a while. But the English publishing was then done by the more enlightened Feldheim publishers, it was not something the Charedi ArtScroll would do because they are Mussar oriented per the "yeshivisha derech" which is anti-philosophical and is only machshiv Gemora lomdus (Talmudic erudition) alone.<br /><br />"Since Rav Kook ztt"l was a chavrusa trio with the fathers' of Rav Elyashiv and Rav SZ Auverbach,, i would hereby worry about the 'daas yachid' torah, that these families absorbed and inculcated."<br /><br />RaP: None of these represent what goes on in any mainstream Litvish yeshivas and none of them have had any impact within them. In fact the roshei yeshiva and mashgichim of the Litvich yeshivas, from the time of Volozhin to this day, have done a great job of insulating the yeshivas and the Talmidim they control from any overt and covert Kabbbalistic influences, even if coming from famous names. Even the word "Kabbalah" is taboo and not to be mentioned in the dalad amos of any conventional Litvish yeshiva. Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64489288096794462362013-01-16T12:26:59.122+02:002013-01-16T12:26:59.122+02:00"EmesLeYaacov said...@RaP - "But the RAM..."EmesLeYaacov said...<i>@RaP - "But the RAMBAM's Moreh Nevuchim is still in a virtual "cherem""</i><br /><br />Moreh Nevuchim is an incredibly brilliant sefer that <b>should</b> be taught in all yeshivos"<br /><br />The Moreh Nevuchim is brilliant (naturally, since it is the product of the RAMBAM's ultra brilliant mind!) but that is not the point of this ongoing discussion. Yet the fact remains that it is NOT taught in yeshivos, never has been and never will be, because it's core is based on Aristotelian philosophy which was the reason it led to the original cherem again the RAMBAM and all his works by the Chachmei Tzarfas/Provence-Askenaz, something that one as great as the RAMBA<b>N</b> (Nachmanides)tried to mediate with little success! It's context was the Greek rationalism that the RAMBAM was trying to counter among the assimilating Spanish-Iberian Jews who were very philosophy oriented, under the influence of enlightened Arabian Muslim Aristotelianism! Unlike the French-German Jews who were Talmidically-scholastically oriented, living in more conservative "orthodox" Catholic Europe. Two different <i>weltanschaungs</i> and the scholastic French-German scholars-Talmudists wanted to wipe out the rationalistic philosophic view and approach and they succeeded. It was a North vs. South European split of the Middle Ages that later became the East vs. West split in Europe of the Early Modern period. Only much later in modern Germany and in modern American, such as with Rav Dr. J.B. Soloveitchik and Yeshiva University that introduced full secular academics combined with Torah studies was this approach revived, especially for Modern Orthodoxy but NOT among Charedi Jewry. Eventually the personal cherem against the RAMBAM was lifted but a de facto, if not de jure cherem still remains against the Moreh Nevuchim. Only yechidei segula, highly worthy very advanced and seasoned mature Torah scholars, are entitled to learn it, and even then, few venture to actually do so. Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87632857727589472912013-01-16T12:02:11.448+02:002013-01-16T12:02:11.448+02:00see new post
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013...see new post<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/kabbala-prof-scholem-ask-no-questions.htmlDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7637036197286622652013-01-16T10:06:12.290+02:002013-01-16T10:06:12.290+02:00If I recall correctly Gershon Scholem wrote that t...If I recall correctly Gershon Scholem wrote that the study of Kabbbala was an act of rebellion against his secular upbringing. He was very much interested in mystical experiences- as Prof. Moshe Idel mentions in his introduction to New Perspectives. But he just couldn't attain it. So he turned to text based academic approach to the subject. Scholem mentioned he had the opportunity to study with real kabbalists but the condition was that he had to be silent and not ask questions until he achieved a certain level - and that he refused to do so he left for a text based academic world devoid of mesora and feeling.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67913129542276439632013-01-16T08:00:42.461+02:002013-01-16T08:00:42.461+02:00There are many things I appreciate about Rav Kook&...There are many things I appreciate about Rav Kook's derekh, including the need for a diversified seder halimud. <br /><br />To understand emunah and what we believe and why is absolutely essential. This is why all literate Jews must be read in the classics of machshava, such as Mesillat Yesharim, Moreh Nevuchim, Sefer Ohr HaShem, Sefer Rosh Amana, Kuzari, Sefer haIkkarim, etc. Daniel Sayaninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33214891598572666152013-01-16T07:35:01.739+02:002013-01-16T07:35:01.739+02:00I wonder how great a Gadol he would have been, had...<i> I wonder how great a Gadol he would have been, had he the good fortune to be raised frum.</i><br /><br />As Pinchas Geller writes in his book "Shalom Shar’abi and the Kabbalists of Beit El" Scholem, despite his upbringing was initially accepted as a student at Beit El, where, given the time frame he would have been a co-student of greats such as Rav Yitzhak Kaduri, Rav Mordekhai Sharabi, Rav Attiah, Rav Ovadiah Hedayya and numerous others who's names are currently lost on me. This was also the time when the Chazon Ish praised their Amkut as being greater than his own. <br />However he despised their method of learning, felt them fools, and left. So it wasn't about being raised frum, it was about good middot and realizing when you are out of your depth.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49548303719050571592013-01-16T07:25:17.967+02:002013-01-16T07:25:17.967+02:00I like most of your comment about the Moreh. Howev...<i>I like most of your comment about the Moreh. However, the Rambam was an incredible genius who actually challenged many erroneous Aristotelian ideas in Moreh Nevuchim.<br /><br />In the Moreh, Rambam strongly opposed Aristotle's idea of an eternal Universe, an eternal Universe being a concept that most scientists today would consider impossible for various reasons.</i><br /><br />Like I said my current knowledge is weak on the subject. I only know that the GR"A held that the charges against the Rambam were false. It may well be that the simple mention of anything Aristotelian at the time was enough to get the Rambam in trouble, despite him tossing out the things that did not jive with Judaism.<br /><br />You seem to be rather Baki in the Guide so I defer to your superior knowledge there.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7271306918371254272013-01-16T07:22:36.074+02:002013-01-16T07:22:36.074+02:00@Eddie
Do you refer to Abraham Abulafia? There are...@Eddie<br /><i>Do you refer to Abraham Abulafia? There are others too who claimed that the Guide made Kabbalistic allusions, including Habad, and Margaliot.<br /><br />But you forget the point that RaP has made a few times, and that I am in agreement with. Maimonides attacked Pan/panentheism, and also corporeality. The Shiur Komah story is well known, and the Ramban's letter to french Rabbis is perhaps less well known.</i><br /><br />Yes I do refer to Rav Avraham Abulafia. I know that there were others after, but he was a Rishon who lived a mere 40yrs after the Rambam's death. A big part of what got him(Abulafia) in trouble was that he was trying to reconcile Kabbalah with the Rambam. That along with his claims of receiving actual prophecy had him run afoul of the Rashba, and his attempt to convert the Pope didn't help. Though I do have to say that either he was really lucky or HaShem protected him in that endeavor, since the pope, who ordered him burned when he arrived, died just hours before he did of a sudden stroke, thus averting the death sentence on Abulafia. Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com