tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post623921170184597680..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Corporality: Rambam's inconsistent viewsDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26725069642739168872013-01-29T17:10:31.775+02:002013-01-29T17:10:31.775+02:00However, the use of moshul of human attributes is ...<i>However, the use of moshul of human attributes is less problematic than the use of polytheistic moshul. There is no such moshul in the torah itself.</i><br />Would you apply the same standard to say Shlomo HaMelekh who wrote:<br /><i>Proverbs 8:1-36 t is Wisdom calling, Understanding raising her voice. 2 She takes her stand at the topmost heights, By the wayside, at the crossroads, 3 Near the gates at the city entrance; At the entryways, she shouts, 4 "O men, I call to you; My cry is to all mankind. 5 O simple ones, learn shrewdness; O dullards, instruct your minds. 6 Listen, for I speak noble things; Uprightness comes from my lips; 7 My mouth utters truth; Wickedness is abhorrent to my lips. 8 All my words are just, None of them perverse or crooked; 9 All are straightforward to the intelligent man, And right to those who have attained knowledge. 10 Accept my discipline rather than silver, Knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; No goods can equal her. 12 "I, Wisdom, live with Prudence; I attain knowledge and foresight. 13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride, arrogance, the evil way, And duplicity in speech. 14 Mine are counsel and resourcefulness; I am understanding; courage is mine. <b> 15 Through me kings reign And rulers decree just laws; 16 Through me princes rule, Great men and all the righteous judges. 17 Those who love me I love, And those who seek me will find me. 18 Riches and honor belong to me, Enduring wealth and success.</b> 19 My fruit is better than gold, fine gold, And my produce better than choice silver. 20 I walk on the way of righteousness, On the paths of justice. <b>21 I endow those who love me with substance; I will fill their treasuries.</b> 22 "The LORD created me at the beginning of His course As the first of His works of old. 23 In the distant past I was fashioned, At the beginning, at the origin of earth. 24 There was still no deep when I was brought forth, No springs rich in water; 25 Before the foundation of the mountains were sunk, Before the hills I was born. 26 He had not yet made earth and fields, Or the world's first clumps of clay. 27 I was there when He set the heavens into place; When He fixed the horizon upon the deep; 28 When He made the heavens above firm, And the fountains of the deep gushed forth; 29 When He assigned the sea its limits, So that its waters never transgress His command; When He fixed the foundations of the earth, <b>30 I was with Him as a confidant, A source of delight every day, Rejoicing before Him at all times, </b>31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, Finding delight with mankind. <b>32 Now, sons, listen to me; Happy are they who keep my ways.</b> 33 Heed discipline and become wise; Do not spurn it. 34 Happy is the man who listens to me, Coming early to my gates each day, Waiting outside my doors. 35 For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD. 36 But he who misses me destroys himself; All who hate me love death." </i><br /><br />Here in his mashal, he makes a rather polytheistic allusion. <br /><br /><i>This quote is very a useful rhetorical device, when discussing other ikkarim - since all Kabalists accept the Unity of G-d (and Incorporeality - except not in its fundamental (Maimonidean) sense.</i><br /><br />That is simply not true. Three introductory texts, Shomer Emunim, Kise Eliyahu, and Kuntres Yesodei HaTorah all insist that any understanding other than a fundamental Maimonidean one is in error.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67684160156143558282013-01-28T16:47:03.732+02:002013-01-28T16:47:03.732+02:00And yet we see below an acknowledgement that the a...<i>And yet we see below an acknowledgement that the average man can't have a belief in a non-physical G-d.</i><br /><br />I don't see where the Rambam stated this, nor do I see any inconsistency between Moreh Nevuchim and the other writings of the Rambam.<br /><br />Your MN translation is not consistent with the Shlomo Pines English translation I use, which is considered the best English translation. "...all men are capable of understanding and representing to themselves <i>at first thought</i> has been ascribed to Him...the multitude cannot <i>at first</i> conceive of any existence save that of a body alone..." (MN, Chpt. 26).<br /><br />The Rambam is simply describing the flaws in the initial beliefs of the "multitude", as opposed to those "whose souls grasp at human perfection." The Rambam does not state that the "multitude" can never attain the correct beliefs in a non-corporeal G-d.<br /><br />The Zohar appears to be a strange compilation of statements (some contradicting Torah principles) from different sources at different periods in Jewish history. You simply will not find the contradictions and illogical statements in the MN that seem to abound in the Zohar.<br />EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86454251447991080452013-01-28T16:11:24.916+02:002013-01-28T16:11:24.916+02:00This question can be looked at from another angle....This question can be looked at from another angle. If there are "get-outs" from some of the 13 Maimonidean principles, then why not others?<br /><br />The late Louis Jacobs, who was once an Orthodox Gadol, and started up his own Masorti ( Conservative) movement once wrote in response to a question from a frum rabbi, that "All Masorti Jews believe in Torah Min Hashamayim, except not in its fundamental meaning".<br /><br />This quote is very a useful rhetorical device, when discussing other ikkarim - since all Kabalists accept the Unity of G-d (and Incorporeality - except not in its fundamental (Maimonidean) sense.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60178444083680590302013-01-28T14:14:29.511+02:002013-01-28T14:14:29.511+02:00Rav Elchonon's notion that all correct beliefs...Rav Elchonon's notion that all correct beliefs are obvious seems surprising. Elsewhere, in an essay about the obviousness of belief, Rav Elchonon writes that all heretical ideas are the result of shochad, of being bribed by the pleasures of this world. I never understood his explanation because since this bribery begins the moment a person is born, how is he supposed to overcome it after he grows up not knowing that he is bribed? I will be grateful if anyone can elucidate this point. Avraham 1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48525781364632458362013-01-28T13:40:36.481+02:002013-01-28T13:40:36.481+02:00The Meshech Chchoma takes a more acceptable approa...The Meshech Chchoma takes a more acceptable approach in which there is no intermediary stage of heresy.<br /><br />Meshech Chochma (Shemos 12:21): It is said about the Jews that they are believers the descendants of believers (Shabbos 97a). However Taanis (5b) notes that non Jews have stronger religious beliefs than Jews - even when their religion is utter nonsense. “The Kittites worship fire and the Kedarites worship water, and even though they know that water can put out fire they have not yet changed their gods but My people hath changed their G d for that which doth not profit.” And even if you want to answer that the faith that is being praised, is believing in things that will happen in the future such as the resurrection of the dead - non Jews also have strong faith in events that will happen in the future. To explain the distinction between Jewish and non Jewish faith, one must note that the appreciation of things such as love, beauty and power are all inherent in a person. The ancient peoples sanctified all these natural powers and placed high value on them and described them as resulting from specific gods. Thus they had a god of beauty, a god of power and a god of love as is well known. A person who personified one of these natural attributes was described as a godly person. Even today, the peoples of the world make images and sanctify these tangible - directly experienced characteristics. Even the Moslems have sanctified the grave of their savior in Mecca and done other things. Consequently, we see that the emotions and senses directly support their faith which is built upon experience and imagery. Thus, non Jewish religious faith is essentially just an extension of natural emotion. That is not how G d conceives religious faith…. In fact, all tangible existence is totally separate from the one Creator. All this is such pure abstract intellectual awareness that Chovas HaLevavos (1:2 Shaar HaYichud) asserts that true service of G d is for either the philosopher or prophet. Nevertheless, all Jews - even without reaching the levels of prophets or even philosophers - truly believe in these pure abstract thoughts of His existence and His unity and they scoff at all that which is entirely based upon natural emotional experience. They understand that faith based entirely on innate human feelings and thoughts is worthless and transient representing only conjecture - G d in the image of man. This is why Chazal state, “How did the Jews merit to recite the Shema which extols the unitary of G d? Because they were descendants of Abraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov.” Because of this knowledge gained from their forefathers - Jews understand this profound abstract philosophical issue and scorn emotion based faith... Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53863685153528469442013-01-28T13:37:57.541+02:002013-01-28T13:37:57.541+02:00It is clear from the Rambam that if a person died ...It is clear from the Rambam that if a person died before developing a proper understanding of physicality he would have no portion in Olam Habah. It is also clear that everyone must go through this heretical view and that the Torah itself is written in a heretical manner - of necessity.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53217819967369071042013-01-28T13:24:19.599+02:002013-01-28T13:24:19.599+02:00Rambam's views are not inconsistent. His views...Rambam's views are not inconsistent. His views are consistently opposed to corporeality, to the point that he writes in halacha that anyone holding such a belief is a heretic (and Raavad's need to offer a blunt criticism).<br />He consistently describes the imagery of the Torah in terms of "moshul". But he says it was given for the simple man to get a grasp, or perhaps a child.<br /><br />Thus his revised view on the Shiur Qomah document which he wished to be expunged.<br /><br />Raavad's criticism does carry some weight. Can someone be called a heretic for reading the torah or midrashim in their pshat form?<br /><br />However, the use of moshul of human attributes is less problematic than the use of polytheistic moshul. There is no such moshul in the torah itself. Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.com