tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post61120351291619830..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Chabad - Never prayed toward picture of Rebbe?Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35116872578799701132013-02-22T20:27:14.217+02:002013-02-22T20:27:14.217+02:00I am Dovid Olensky, who you are referring to in yo...I am Dovid Olensky, who you are referring to in your post above that said, "In Rabbi Olensky's shul in North Miami Beach, FL there was a picture of the Rebbe next to the Aron. This was in effect, praying to the Rebbe."<br /><br />This "Shul" for Shabbos & Yom Tov that functioned for less than a year, about 15 years ago, was not a "Shul" - it was my house. The "Shul" was in my living room/dining room. Most of the time, we were lucky if we had a Minyan in this "Shul."<br /><br />1) To label my house as a "Shul" to prove your point is false and misleading. 99% of the time, this was only my house, not a Shul. My available wall space in my house to hang a picture is very small. The picture of the Rebbe on the wall was there for a year before we set up this temporary Daavening arrangement, and remains there on the wall for the last 15 years after the "Shul" ended.<br /><br />2) Absolutely nobody praying there was praying to the Rebbe. We pray to Hashem. You could have easily found this out by asking someone. I'm sorry that you were left with a false impression and I'm sorry that you're spreading this false impression. No Lubavitchers pray to the Rebbe. We pray to Hashem alone. Sorry to ruin your Lashon Harah.yechi7https://www.blogger.com/profile/03077662296858961530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71793492156268053782010-02-22T01:16:05.028+02:002010-02-22T01:16:05.028+02:002. Hashem, our G-d, is a very “JEALOUS G-D” who de...2. Hashem, our G-d, is a very “JEALOUS G-D” who demands “EXCLUSIVE WORSHIP.”<br /><br />Hashem has clearly told us in the Second Commandment:<br /><br />‘Lo ta’aseh lecha PESEL, vechol temunah asher bashamayim, mima’al va’asher ba’aretz, mitachat va’asher ba’mayim, mitachat la’aretz. <br />Lo tishtachaveh lahem, ve’lo ta’avdem, KI ANI HASHEM ELOKECHA, KEL KANAH, poked avon avot al banim, al shileshim, ve’al ribe’im, le’sonay. <br />Ve’osseh chessed la’alafim, le’ohavai, u’leshomrei mitzvotai.’ (Parsha of Yitro, Chapter 20, verses 3-6)<br /><br />‘Do not represent (such gods) by any CARVED STATUE OR PICTURE of anything in the heaven above, or the earth below, or in the water below the land. <br />Do not bow down to (such gods) or worship them. I am G-d your Lord, A JEALOUS G-D, who demands EXCLUSIVE WORSHIP. <br />Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for (their) descendants, to the third and fourth (generation). <br />But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands (of generations.) <br /><br />(a) Many synagogues contain actual carved statues of 2 GOLD/BRONZE LIONS clutching a depiction of the 10 Commandments. <br /><br />These GOLD/BRONZE LIONS should be REMOVED ENTIRELY and immediately from the synagogue. No matter how large or small they are.<br /> <br />It is completely assur, (forbidden), and against the Halachah for such images to be inside any synagogue.Deborah Shayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73059133546734885902010-02-22T01:14:13.813+02:002010-02-22T01:14:13.813+02:001. There should be NO IMAGES whatsoever, inside an...1. There should be NO IMAGES whatsoever, inside any synagogue. <br /><br />There should be NO IMAGES of <br />• ANY PERSON, or <br />• ANY ANIMAL or <br />• ANY OBJECT<br /> inside any synagogue.<br /><br /> Any images of a person, animal or object should be REMOVED immediately, and ENTIRELY out of the synagogue or shteibl. No matter how large or small they may be. This is against the Halachah.<br /><br />(a) Images of a Person – inside a synagogue: <br /><br />Examples:<br />• Portraits of a person;<br />• Photographs of a person;<br />• Drawings of a person; <br />• A Calendar containing many images might be attached to the wall; <br />• The cloth marker for the Sefer Torah may contain an image of a person or an object e.g. the sun with human features.<br />• The Notice Board inside the synagogue/the room used for the minyan: this should be checked carefully for images of ANY PERSON, no matter how small, including tiny clip art images.<br /><br />There should be NO IMAGE of ANY PERSON whatsoever, inside ANY synagogue, especially in the area where people pray. <br /><br />Every IMAGE OF a PERSON should be REMOVED immediately from the synagogue or shteibel, as this is against the Halachah. <br /><br />• This applies in particular to the Ladies’ section, where there may be pictures of a rabbi, rebbe, or tzaddikim. <br /><br />• The Notice Board inside the synagogue/the room used for the minyan: <br /> A tiny clip-art image may have been used at the end of a notice or advert on the Noticeboard e.g. a small dotted image of a stick man.<br /><br />• Similarly, if a house is being used for a minyan, all images of people should be removed from the room being used for the tefillot.Deborah Shayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10058195870658774112008-09-18T21:27:00.000+03:002008-09-18T21:27:00.000+03:00Jacob Freund,You claim to be 'no great supporter o...Jacob Freund,<BR/>You claim to be 'no great supporter of Lubavitch', yet have a 'hissy fit' and attack Lazer, a very knowledgable and decent poster, when he politely points out things to you.<BR/><BR/>You are either a Lubavitcher masquerading or someone who has no manners.<BR/><BR/>Also 'interesting' how you 'somehow' know Lubavitchers rabbis from across the globe(you pointed out rabbis from L.A Miami and Australia!).Objective poster who just 'happens' to a globe trotter?<BR/>I think not!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55103182039359989272008-09-16T15:31:00.000+03:002008-09-16T15:31:00.000+03:00" As for the bulk of your comment, it is truly imp..." As for the bulk of your comment, it is truly impressive when someone can insert so many insults into one comment"<BR/><BR/>And this is saddest part of all that they are to answer to most objections with substance but with non-sequitor "answers" (how can other crises in other sectors of jews be answer to the the growth of a new religion in their midst) and the worse of all with such vehement hatred at the critics and criticism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41093418659774470422008-09-16T06:28:00.000+03:002008-09-16T06:28:00.000+03:00...sigh...Ok, Reb Jacob. Let's take a step back.Be......sigh...<BR/><BR/>Ok, Reb Jacob. Let's take a step back.<BR/><BR/>Beneath all the rancor, it appears that you have two substantive criticisms of what I have said. I will attempt to summarize and respond to each:<BR/><BR/>1) You cited a group of Lubavitcher roshei yeshiva who had "banned" meshichism within their yeshivos. I said I was pleased to hear this and asked if they had made any public statements to that effect. You took very strong exception to this, saying that it is not their responsibility to make public proclamations. Your point is well taken. Not every rosh yeshiva sees himself in the role of a manhig who has a responsibility to the general community. While, obviously, some must take on this role, others see their primary responsibility to be teaching their talmidim. This is a valid position.<BR/><BR/>Being that this is so, may I ask if you could give us any details on exactly what their ban of meshichism within their yeshivos entails? Are the talmidim actually taught that believing the LLR is moshiach is wrong?<BR/><BR/>2) You had stated, "The meshichistim are likely not kofrim at all, simply misguided idiots, for the most part, and it will die out on it's own." To which I had responded, "Any clear eyed observer can see that this is not true. Just read the essay I cited above!"<BR/><BR/>You took strong exception to this, saying that we see no evidence that major poskim have declared the meshichisten as kofrim. Again, your point is valid. My response was unclear. When I said that your statement was not true, I was not referring to the first half of your sentence, "The meshichistim are likely not kofrim at all", but to the last, that the meshichist movement "will die out on it's own." I apologize for the lack of precision.<BR/><BR/>I do not recall ever saying that the meshichisten are kofrim. In fact, I am inclined to believe that, by and large, they are not. In my opinion, people throw around the terms "kofer" and apikorus" far too liberally.<BR/><BR/>That being said, the meshichisten are clearly not a minor phenomenom that will go away on its own. They are a growing group that is making rapid inroads in the mainstream Chabad community. In fact, by now, it is quite possible that the meshichisten actually are the mainstream.<BR/><BR/>Their beliefs may not yet come to kefira, but their beliefs are nevertheless fundamentally wrong and dangerous. Beliefs need not be kefira to be harmful.<BR/><BR/>I also believe that it is clear that many major poskim agree with this assessment. A widely discussed article in Mishpacha magazine quoted three such poskim (R' Miller, R' Heineman, and R' Belsky) on the issue of the meshichistim. (See <A HREF="http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/07/chabad-r-belsky-vs-r-miller-r.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>)<BR/><BR/>R' Miller said that the belief that the LLR is moshiach is "definitely assur" and that he would not accept such a person as a rav or shochet. He believes that the movement will die out. (I don't share his confidence.) He also says that it is important for the meshichisten to know of the "vehement" oppostion to these beliefs by other chareidim.<BR/><BR/>Rav Heineman said that the belief that the LLR is moshiach is "a distortion" and "not the truth." His recommended strategy to the meshichist campaign is to ignore it.<BR/><BR/>Rav Belsky says that he disgrees, presumably with the mild approach endorsed by Rav Heineman, though this is not clear. He clearly sees the meshichist problem to be rooted in the relationship that Lubavitchers had with their late rebbe. He says that the entire approach "has no place in Yiddishkeit."<BR/><BR/>So, are my statements really so far out? Given their public statements, I don't believe that any of these poskim would disagree with the substance of my remarks. (Rav Heineman would probably prefer that I didn't make them.)<BR/><BR/>I hope this has cleared up some of your confusion.<BR/><BR/>As for the bulk of your comment, it is truly impressive when someone can insert so many insults into one comment. (BTW, you should look up the word 'vindictive', you are not using it correctly.)<BR/><BR/>I can honestly say that I do not hate Lubavitch, not even the open meshichisten. I am, however, gravely worried about what will happen to them. As I have said previously, I honestly believe we are on the verge of losing a significant part of the Torah community.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43646819926023413342008-09-16T05:38:00.000+03:002008-09-16T05:38:00.000+03:00"the 'yeshivish' world, where Roshei Yeshivot rout..."the 'yeshivish' world, where Roshei Yeshivot routinely issue bans on music, clothes, food, and allow Jewish kids like Isaac Hirsh to be shipped off to eat treyfe food in Jamaica....so many of the prominent Rabbis and Roshei Yeshiva who seem to specialize in fatwas and 'public statements' have been silent on the pedophilia problem in their yeshivot...That if they continue their silence and even active efforts to stymie investigations. For these are not shy people, they know how to scream 'kfirah', 'freier', and 'rasha' when it occurs to them, so why the silence on a REAL issue of saving lives ?"<BR/><BR/>"typical of your self-righteous and vindictive approach."<BR/><BR/>"hate disguised as piety is still just hate"<BR/><BR/>Did this post get mixed up with a post from "Jew watch"? <BR/><BR/>This is really offensive and anti semitic blog. I do not see how this contributes to a discussion of Torah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18592625658818193292008-09-16T02:39:00.000+03:002008-09-16T02:39:00.000+03:00Lazera:Reluctant as I was to believe it, you've co...Lazera:<BR/>Reluctant as I was to believe it, you've confirmed what so many Chabadniks claim. Nothing in your posts reflects any honest intellectual analysis of what Chabad does and whether it's right or wrong. Rather, you arrive as judge, jury, and executioner, demanding acceptance of YOUR standard and ground rules. This is not the stuff of scholars, but of demagogues. I imagine it's a waste of time to debate one in sole posession of exclusive truth, much as arguing with a brainwashing victim is a waste of time. You seek not to learn, but to criticize. The only Chabadnik you accept is the one who comes on bended knee to confess. Although there are "shivim panim latorah", you insist that they all lead in your direction.<BR/><BR/>When you make an absurd statement like;<BR/>"I am genuinely pleased to hear this. Could you please point us to public statements by these individuals condemning the meshichisten as fundamentally wrong? All of the criticisms I have come across are very mild and generally save the really strong language for non-Lubavitchers who are critical of the meshichisten."<BR/>all you do is put your incredible bias and hubris on display. Unlike the 'yeshivish' world, where Roshei Yeshivot routinely issue bans on music, clothes, food, and allow Jewish kids like Isaac Hirsh to be shipped off to eat treyfe food in Jamaica... the only thing the Roshei Yeshiva I mentioned do is, SURPRISE - they learn and teach torah. Consequently, they are not in the 'proclamation' business, not about meshichism or anything else. They obviously enforce strict rules about what is (and is not) accepted in THEIR OWN yeshivas. So if your 'demand for validity du jour' is 'public statements', you might try holding your breath...<BR/>Which brings me to a valid point I see some others have raised. Since so many of the prominent Rabbis and Roshei Yeshiva who seem to specialize in fatwas and 'public statements' have been silent on the pedophilia problem in their yeshivot, might we assume, taking your approach to its logical conclusion ? That if they continue their silence and even active efforts to stymie investigations, that they might support leaving the problem alone. For these are not shy people, they know how to scream 'kfirah', 'freier', and 'rasha' when it occurs to them, so why the silence on a REAL issue of saving lives ?<BR/><BR/>Now, after I wrote that;<BR/>"The meshichistim are likely not kofrim at all, simply misguided idiots, for the most part, and it will die out on it's own.", you asserted that;<BR/>"Any clear eyed observer can see that this is not true. Just read the essay I cited above!"<BR/><BR/>Which is typical of your self-righteous and vindictive approach. IF any major posek were truly of such opinion, they would have, or should, issue a loud and clear halakhic ruling saying so. When people waffle and say that 'so-and-so' privately told 'such-and-such' a talmid that '.......' (insert your choice heresy du jour) is really kfirah, it doesn't sound convincing. Might the absence of such a public and unambiguous annoncement mean that there are not, in fact, halakhic grounds for such a ruling. Again, there are 'shivim panim latorah' and a fringe opinion does not necessarily equal heresy.<BR/><BR/>And yes, you understood me correctly. There is no balance in hate to be restored, only some honesty in the debate. You, from the outside, have the gall to demand an accounting from Chabad, based on YOUR subjective and unscientific analysis. What happened to giving them benefit of the doubt ? Are they not Jews in your opinion - which halakhic standard allows you to slander a whole group so viciously, based on your cherry-picked 'research samples'?<BR/>Chabad doesn't owe you an explanation, nor do you owe them one. As someone who has had many, many, questions about what Chabad was doing over the years, I have done the responsible and 'Torahdik' thing. I have spent time visiting some of their prominent rabbanim and ASKED HONEST QUESTIONS. Not always did I like their answers or explanations, but I at-least understood their perspective. This was important to me because, while I supported many more programs outside Chabad, I also supported some of theirs. What I've read here has convinced me to increase my support for them, as I see them sweating in the field, while people like you only respond with hate. The rest of your latest attacks on this site have convinced me of this. Yes, hate disguised as piety is still just hate, and that's something we all should consider before Rosh Hashanah.<BR/><BR/>Shana Tovah,<BR/>Jacob FreundAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31156737404201498082008-09-15T20:09:00.000+03:002008-09-15T20:09:00.000+03:00Asher Heber said... The Rebbe was a revolutionary ...Asher Heber said... <BR/><BR/><I>The Rebbe was a revolutionary figure because of these seemingly revolutionary Mivtzoim just as Avrohom Avinu was a revolutionary in his time.People generally do not take kindly to revolutionary ideas and the "Velt" did not take kindly to the Rebbi's miivtzoim,and there lies the rub. That's when the estrangement beetween Lubavitch and the velt began and Chabad went into the "circeling the wagons" mode.</I><BR/><BR/>While there have been Jewish revolutionaries, such as Avraham Avinu, who have brought about positive change, the overwhelming majority of Jewish revolutionaries have wrought great harm. History has taught the Jewish people to be justly suspicious of revolutionaries.<BR/><BR/>It is true, of course, that, at times, this suspicion interferes with necessary changes, but, throughout history, even well-intentioned revolutionaries have caused more harm than good.<BR/><BR/>If a Torah leader seeks to introduce "revolutionary" ideas or practices, he should be fully prepared to receive criticism from the broader Torah world. A wise leader would recognize that such criticism is to be expected and should prepare his followers to understand that such criticism is not the result of hatred. A true Torah leader would teach his followers to continue to respect those who criticize them, explaining that only with the passage of time will they see that their actions were justified. This was the path followed by the early chassidim, who always spoke respectfully of the Vilna Gaon, despite his strong antagonism to their movement.<BR/><BR/>In current Chabad, this lesson has clearly not conveyed. Opponents of Chabad, even world-famous gedolim, are villified and spoken of in the vilest terms.<BR/><BR/><I>It's interesting to note that most of the Rebbis mivtzoim which were so roundly condemed by the so called "gedolim" of that time are now part and parcel of non Chabad kiruv movements with the blessing of the Gedolim.</I><BR/><BR/>To my knowledge, none of the specific practices mentioned by Zalmen, such as tefilin campaigns, Lag b'Omer parades, public menorahs, or young girls lighting Shabbos licht, have become mainstream. As someone who has been involved in kiruv for most of his life, I have yet to see any of these practices outside of Chabad.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you are referring to the general concept of "kiruv". Of course, the basic concept of kiruv is not an invention of Chabad, it is a well-established Torah concept going back to Har Sinai.<BR/><BR/>As for the methodological approach to kiruv, for the most part, Chabad's approach to kiruv has not been adopted by the general Torah community. There are some kiruv groups that have mimicked aspects of Chabads approach (e.g. sending 'shluchim' off to far-flung locations) but the bulk of kiruv in the Torah world is very different. (A detailed discussion of the different approaches to kiruv and their philosophical underpinnings would be very interesting.)<BR/><BR/>The main Chabad "claim to fame" with regard to kiruv is that they were the first to engage in a large, organized kiruv campaign. I believe that this is true. I also believe that this campaign has had some serious costs for the Chabad community.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69828775655733064462008-09-15T18:40:00.001+03:002008-09-15T18:40:00.001+03:00Lazera's question as to what came first,the chicke...Lazera's question as to what came first,the chicken or the egg,as to Chabad's relationship with the "Velt" is answerd in the following quote from Zalmen's post<BR/>"Going back to the 50’s with ufaratzta and oureach to the 60’s with the tefilin campain, to public menoras, to girls from 3 lighting Shabbos candles, to Lag B’omer parades, and so on. These were considered major terrible “deviants, novelties that had to be condemned by most gedolim of the time" <BR/>The Rebbe was a revolutionary figure because of these seemingly revolutionary Mivtzoim just as Avrohom Avinu was a revolutionary in his time.People generally do not take kindly to revolutionary ideas and the "Velt" did not take kindly to the Rebbi's miivtzoim,and there lies the rub.That's when the estrangement beetween Lubavitch and the velt began and Chabad went into the "circeling the wagons" mode.<BR/>It's interesting to note that most of the Rebbis mivtzoim which were so roundly condemed by the so called "gedolim" of that time are now part and parcel of non Chabad kiruv movements with the blessing of the Gedolim.Sad to say the looking askance at the percieved iniquities of Chabad and Chabads defensive mode has remained and perhaps snowballed out of control.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48690041394454944702008-09-15T18:40:00.000+03:002008-09-15T18:40:00.000+03:00Lazera's question as to what came first,the chicke...Lazera's question as to what came first,the chicken or the egg,as to Chabad's relationship with the "Velt" is answerd in the following quote from Zalmen's post<BR/>"Going back to the 50’s with ufaratzta and oureach to the 60’s with the tefilin campain, to public menoras, to girls from 3 lighting Shabbos candles, to Lag B’omer parades, and so on. These were considered major terrible “deviants, novelties that had to be condemned by most gedolim of the time" <BR/>The Rebbe was a revolutionary figure because of these seemingly revolutionary Mivtzoim just as Avrohom Avinu was a revolutionary in his time.People generally do not take kindly to revolutionary ideas and the "Velt" did not take kindly to the Rebbi's miivtzoim,and there lies the rub.That's when the estrangement beetween Lubavitch and the velt began and Chabad went into the "circeling the wagons" mode.<BR/>It's interesting to note that most of the Rebbis mivtzoim which were so roundly condemed by the so called "gedolim" of that time are now part and parcel of non Chabad kiruv movements with the blessing of the Gedolim.Sad to say the looking askance at the percieved iniquities of Chabad and Chabads defensive mode has remained and perhaps snowballed out of control.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42949442108863146362008-09-15T15:10:00.000+03:002008-09-15T15:10:00.000+03:00I'm sorry. The second link in my comment above was...I'm sorry. The second link in my comment above was erroneous. It should have gone here:<BR/><A HREF="http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=13388" REL="nofollow">http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=13388</A>LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45719489738921902532008-09-15T02:57:00.000+03:002008-09-15T02:57:00.000+03:00J. Freund said... ...Lazera's ... reckless (and ob...J. Freund said... <BR/><BR/><I>...Lazera's ... reckless (and obviously incorrect) statements like "most non-Lubavitchers do not know much about Moshiach or anything pertaining to ruchnius in general."...</I><BR/><BR/>Um, did you read what I wrote? I was explicitly quoting the words of an essay written by a Lubavitcher which was heavily discussed on this website. You can find the post <A HREF="http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/09/chabad-is-rebbe-moshiacha-chasid-speaks.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. The essay also appeared on a number of other websites, such as <A HREF="" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>So, now that we cleared that up, will my criticisms "be viewed with less suspicion". I suspect not, and precisely because of the reasons I described above.<BR/><BR/><I>most of the prominent Chabad Roshei Yeshiva are world class scholars who have, in their own yeshivos, banned any of the crazy meshichism since the beginning. I mean scholars like Rav Ezra Shochet of LA, Rav Benyomin Cohen of Australia, and Rav Shapiro of Miami.</I><BR/><BR/>I am genuinely pleased to hear this. Could you please point us to public statements by these individuals condemning the meshichisten as fundamentally wrong? All of the criticisms I have come across are very mild and generally save the really strong language for non-Lubavitchers who are critical of the meshichisten.<BR/><BR/><I>The meshichism are likely not kofrim at all, simply misguided idiots, for the most part, and it will die out on it's own.</I><BR/><BR/>This is an excellent example of what I just described. Any clear eyed observer can see that this is not true. Just read the essay I cited above!<BR/><BR/><I>All the silly hate that gets leveled at general Chabad in the meantime only serves to delay the restoration of balance.</I><BR/><BR/>According to you, there is no balance that needs to be restored! Its just a small, short-lived, group of misguided idiots!<BR/><BR/>If Lubavitchers would come out clearly saying that they reject the idea that the late Lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach, the whole controversy would disappear!LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12873474815908271032008-09-15T02:33:00.000+03:002008-09-15T02:33:00.000+03:00"Modern Orthodox ... even alalow girls and women t..."Modern Orthodox ... even alalow girls and women to give droshas in many of their shulls violating kol isha"<BR/><BR/>RaP: I am not aware of an opinion which states that women are forbidden to speak because of kol isha. Kol Isha refers only to singing. <BR/><BR/>Many women surmise that men cannot hear women's voices, but this is not because it is forbidden. <BR/><BR/>We put pictures of the Gedolim in the house as an inspiration and an example.Pictures are not put in the shul and pictures are not put on the same wall as the mizrach so that no one will inadvertently pray to them. <BR/><BR/>"When was the last time you came into an Orthodox shull that was painted with bare simple plain walls with absoltely nothing on them?"<BR/><BR/>The synagogue we pray in has nothing on the walls except for the marble panels from Italy. I have never prayed in a synagogue that had anything on the walls except for paint, paneling or wallpaper. I have seen ornately carved Arons, ridiculously expensive marble, intricate mechitzas, more silver than the Hunt brothers', amazing tapestries and priceless rugs, but never pictures and never mirrors. <BR/><BR/>Shloime: <BR/><BR/>There are times when a person is obligated to speak out, even though the information is disparaging. Specifically, if a person’s intent in sharing the negative information is for a to’elet, a positive, constructive, and beneficial purpose, the prohibition against lashon hara does not apply. And if the lashon hara serves as a warning against the possibility of a person being harmed, such communication is not only permissible, but, under certain conditions, compulsory.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75974935834168134332008-09-15T02:28:00.000+03:002008-09-15T02:28:00.000+03:00I think that if Lazera's animosity to Chabad with ...I think that if Lazera's animosity to Chabad with reckless (and obviously incorrect) statements like "most non-Lubavitchers do not know much about Moshiach or anything pertaining to ruchnius in general." was less glaring, the criticism would be viewed with less suspicion. Though no great supporter of Chabad myself, I have, over the past 30 or so years, had many debates and discussions with many prominent thinkers and talmidei khakhomim within Chabad, and they are certainly very well-versed in Torah. In addition, most of the prominent Chabad Roshei Yeshiva are world class scholars who have, in their own yeshivos, banned any of the crazy meshichism since the beginning. I mean scholars like Rav Ezra Shochet of LA, Rav Benyomin Cohen of Australia, and Rav Shapiro of Miami. The meshichism are likely not kofrim at all, simply misguided idiots, for the most part, and it will die out on it's own. All the silly hate that gets leveled at general Chabad in the meantime only serves to delay the restoration of balance. <BR/><BR/>Jacob FreundAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30603022944033750282008-09-15T01:19:00.000+03:002008-09-15T01:19:00.000+03:00Zalmen raises a number of important issues. I have...Zalmen raises a number of important issues. I have long felt that the core issue that led to the current crisis in Chabad was their feeling of being fundamentally separate from the general Jewish community. This has caused them to ignore outside criticism, seeing it as rooted in a fundamentally different belief system which has no legitimacy within their community. In some cases, it has made them oblivious to how far-out their beliefs and actions appear to non-Lubavitchers.<BR/><BR/>This tendency has also led them to see every criticism or controversy regarding Chabad as an expression of hatred. The truth is that, for good or ill, such criticisms are commonplace in the frum community. Almost every prominent godol/rebbe/yeshiva/organization/community has been "condemned" for some reason or another by someone at some point. It is part of the price we pay for having a cohesive community. We criticize those whose behavior we care about.<BR/><BR/>It is difficult to say when this separatist tendency in Chabad began. It is clearly not rooted in chassidus in general. Although, obviously, the original chassidim did separate themselves to some degree, there was always a clear desire to maintain legitimacy within the broader community. We see this, for example, in the strenuous efforts made by chassidic leaders, such as the Baal HaTanya, towards a rapprochment with the misnagdim.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, we don't find any similar separatist tendencies in other major chassidic groups today. Obviously, each group maintains its own identity and philosophy, but they all clearly see themselves as part of a broader legitimate Torah community.<BR/><BR/>While it is difficult to say when the roots of this problem began, it is clear that it became a significant factor during the reign of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe. <BR/><BR/>I suspect there was a kind of feedback cycle here. The Chabad community, behaving in a separatist manner, invited criticism from outside, which, in turn, reinforced Chabad's sense of separation. And so on and so on... until it got to the point that Lubavitchers truly felt that their relationship with the general frum "velt" was analogous to that of Jews with non-Jews. As Zalmen said, "...Chabad reacted with an understandable ‘indifference to what the “velt” thinks of us’. Much like ...a frum person saying “What the Goyim thinks of us is none of our concern, we have to do what we have to do”"<BR/><BR/>I don't think that the general frum community is completely innocent in this catstrophe. At the same time, the fact that Chabad, and only Chabad, has developed this broad dysfunctional relationship with the general Torah community and is currently veering so wildly out of control, would seem to indicate that the core problem is rooted in Chabad and not in the way others have treated them. (Indeed, the very fact that Lubavitchers feel that, of all the innumerable varieties of Torah Jews, they were uniquely singled out for mistreatment is rooted in their self-perception as fundamentally unique.)<BR/><BR/>Frankly, I believe that the core problem has been irresponsible leadership by a brilliant, innovative, and charismatic leader who encouraged his followers to think that they were a unique, elite group with eschatological significance. They were led to believe that they, and only they, held the "keys to the kingdom", so to speak, and were operating on a level above and beyond the comprehension of all other Jews. <BR/><BR/>We have seen this sentiment expressed innumerable times in these discussions. As even the anti-meshichist author of a recent post put it, "most non-Lubavitchers do not know much about Moshiach or anything pertaining to ruchnius in general."<BR/><BR/>Even the criticisms of world-famous talmidei chachamim are easily shrugged off because, it is readily assumed, (1) they can't possibly know anything about kabala or chassidus and (2) they must be hateful enemies of Chabad. This is seen as so self-evident that no real response to the criticisms is necessary.<BR/><BR/>At this point, I think Zalmen is correct that any real solution for Chabad will have to come from within. I suspect that, at this point, a certain number of these Jews will be permanently lost. However, if a significant number of Lubavitchers will stand up and take action, perhaps the community as a whole, with its wealth of unique minhagim and its unique contributions to Torah, can still be saved.<BR/><BR/>P.S. Zalmen, if you read the relevant passage in Dr. Berger's book, you will find that the statement regarding the menorah was quoted to illustrate that there truly are those who are irrational in their criticism of Chabad. He did not quote it approvingly.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12231378652158868612008-09-14T17:10:00.000+03:002008-09-14T17:10:00.000+03:00Practically everything the Rebbe initiated was con...Practically everything the Rebbe initiated was condemned by some Godol. Moshiach issue is the cherry on the pie (though a very big cherry).<BR/><BR/>Going back to the 50’s with ufaratzta and oureach to the 60’s with the tefilin campain, to public menoras, to girls from 3 lighting Shabbos candles, to Lag B’omer parades, and so on. These were considered major terrible “deviants”, novelties that had to be condemned.<BR/>Artscroll refuses to publish any Chidushim from the Rebbe. Chabad take offence from this. More seforim have been published of the Rebbe’s works than ANY other Rebbe, Talmid Chochom, or Gadol in history. And I’m not exaggerating. Over 200 Seforim from the Rebbe, ranging from 39 Lekutai Sichos to over 20 volumes of published letters to over 40 volumes of unedited talks from over 40 years of Farbrengens. The Rebbe would farbreng for 6 hours speaking divrei Torah quoting from Shas, medrash, rishoinim, achronim, Chasidus, without any notes at all. And all this is ignored by the “velt”.<BR/><BR/>Then every minhag was attacked, not sleaping in the succa, and so on.<BR/><BR/>Chabad felt like the “Jewboy” of the frum velt, forever shunned and scoffed.<BR/>Most Chabad felt that they were condemned at every turn. Like Israel in the UN.<BR/>So most Chabad reacted with an understandable ‘indifference to what the “velt” thinks of us’. Much like an Israeli saying “Who cares what the world thinks of us. They hate us anyway.” Or a frum person saying “What the Goyim thinks of us is none of our concern, we have to do what we have to do”<BR/><BR/>Now when there is a real issue that Chabad could listen to some criticism, many feel the velt has lost it’s credentials to criticize Lubavitch. They feel this is just the latest issue out of hundreds.<BR/><BR/>Now even the legitimate criticism of the M.’s is laced with libels.Chabad prays to the Rebbis picture,before davining,during davining,after davining and on and on.<BR/> David Berger, though with merit decries the M.’s, has added bizarre accusations. He writes that a “chashuvah” Rabbi told him the reason Chabad have emphasized strait menoras instead of round is because “every new religion needs a symbol”. He forgets to mention that this is the opinion of Rashi, and that the Rambam drew with his own hand a straight menora, and the Rambams son verified this. His otherwise justified objection is therefor viewed with suspicion.<BR/><BR/>The M.’s have to be fought. But not for the “velts” sake, because we simply stopped caring what the velt thinks of us, they have displayed extreme bias over many years, but rather for our own sake, for the sake of our children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21852216299931329842008-09-14T07:33:00.000+03:002008-09-14T07:33:00.000+03:00yankel said:"Where was there a "custom" as one of ...yankel said:<BR/>"Where was there a "custom" as one of the people phrased to look at a picture of the Baal Shem Tov before davening? to place the picture of Tzadik in Chassidic REbbe's synagogues?"<BR/><BR/>Shloime:<BR/>The custom, as far as I know, existed NOWHERE, and certainly not in Chabad. Stop ignoring the facts and accepting every bit of rechillus as fact (shelo k'din, incidentally).<BR/><BR/>So please respond to to this fellow (Levi) who wrote:<BR/>"The Rebbie did not discuss the halacha regarding those who followed the custom of the radvaz of looking at him once just before prayer...":<BR/><BR/>Shloime:<BR/><BR/>Start attacking your friends for making these comments and the others who "defend" this and other silly and bizarre new "customs".<BR/>If instead of hubris and arrogance in denigrating other jews you would educate *your* friends and puils the story would different. But as it goes your friends will grow in creating new "customs" etc. and you will continue to attack those who criticize the torah chadasha with "rechilus".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48944819090261756052008-09-14T04:09:00.000+03:002008-09-14T04:09:00.000+03:00Joe in Australia said... Incidentally, Lecha Dodi ...Joe in Australia said... <BR/><BR/><I>Incidentally, Lecha Dodi isn't actually a prayer. It's a song in praise of Shabbos. The only entities addressed in that song are Yerushalayim, the Jews, and Shabbos.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, according to the Sefer Yesod v'Shoresh HaAvoda (and repeated in a number of standard pirushim on the siddur, including the Anaf Yosef and the Siddur Tikun Shabbos), the word "Dodi" is referring to Hashem and the term Kalah is refering to His shechina, and the phrase, "Lecha Dodi likras Kalah", is an expression of "kudsha brich hu u'shechintei".<BR/><BR/>Maybe you are relying on a different commentary. I would like to know who.<BR/><BR/>As for other issues I have commented on in this thread, no one has responded with anything substantive, just insults and general nastiness. (The usual pattern.)LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16810933082045501362008-09-13T13:16:00.000+03:002008-09-13T13:16:00.000+03:00If ... he is milling around ... and he continues t...<I>If ... he is milling around ... and he continues to pray while he is facing the back of the shul ... he is at the time praying to the picture of the Rebbe </I><BR/><BR/>Nonsense. Praying "to" something means praising it or beseeching favors from it. Many shuls have pictures of lions on the paroches. Are people "praying to" these pictures? I quite agree that one shouldn't pray <B>while facing</B> a picture or other form, but that's because of distraction and maaris ayin. <BR/><BR/>Incidentally, Lecha Dodi isn't actually a prayer. It's a song in praise of Shabbos. The only entities addressed in that song are Yerushalayim, the Jews, and Shabbos. If it <B>were</B> a prayer than we would all be guilty of avodah zarah, heaven forfend, because we may not address prayers to anyone but Hashem. <BR/><BR/><I>Nor do I appreciate the fear and intimidation you are trying to instill in anyone who dares to ask a question about Chabad.</I><BR/><BR/>Halevai my rebukes would be enough to intimidate even myself. If you are so pure a soul as to be afraid and intimidated by a bit of tochacha - well, good for you, it will keep you far from sin.<BR/><BR/><I>Please advise me as to precisely WHICH halachoa have I violated in reporting my observation that Rabbi Dalfins shul in North Bay Village has a picture of the Rebbe on the back wall of the sanctuary?</I><BR/><BR/>Glad to help: Vayikro 19:16 Lo telekh rakhil b'amekho ....<BR/><BR/>Anyway, my criticism was caused by the fact that you claimed that people were "praying to" the picture. I have no opinion as to whether there actually is a picture there or not; I try not to believe loshon hora.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24067228337638637492008-09-12T21:38:00.000+03:002008-09-12T21:38:00.000+03:00To Not LubavitchI can appreciate your predicament ...To Not Lubavitch<BR/>I can appreciate your predicament as I get it from both sides.Obviously from the meshichistim and from some of the anti's who admonish me with the dictum "Al tisnabel in hanivolim......."<BR/>Lazera<BR/>It seems to me that anything that disagrees with your premise is "flimsy evidence". I get the impression that you perceive yourself as the "defender Of the faith" who single handily will will save Yiddishkiet from the inequities of Lubavitch.You and Dr.Berger.<BR/>It's interesting that many who quote him, would ordinarily look askance at him because of the fact that he's MO.He only becomes a "godol" and a source of great knowledge and wisdom when it comes to trashing Lubavitch.My wife had him as teacher in Brooklyn college many years ago,way before the meshichistim became an issue.He was a detractor of Lubavitch even then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32441891757063890882008-09-12T21:10:00.000+03:002008-09-12T21:10:00.000+03:00A quote on the subject of "pictures" from a differ...A quote on the subject of "pictures" from a different site.<BR/>"The Rebbe was once asked by a lady who strongly criticized and questioned the Rebbes call for unmarried girls to light Shabbos candles,<BR/>being that her family custom was that young girls do not light Shabbos candles. The Rebbe answered, (printed I believe in Vol 16 of LS) “Your Grandparents didn’t wear make up or go to movies either, so when one adds in darkness one needs to add in light.”<BR/>Personally I could care less whether you have ten or twenty pictures of Gedolim in your living room, something which once again was absolutely anathema to Yeshivish crowds of yesteryear, but with all the influences in the HOME and the STREET and the CHEDER and the YESHIVA that kids are subject to, I for one would rather them be bombarded with pictures and videos of Gedolim and Rebbes (whoever they are) than the other stuff. our kids (and we adults as well I might add) need whatever help they can get from WHEREVER they can get it. The Midrash quoted by Rashi that Yosef was saved from sin due to recalling his fathers image.<BR/>As for the child looking at the Rebbes picture and then saying Shema, I’ve never seen it happen and at the Chadorim and Yeshivos I went to they don’t teach it, but allow me a different perspective.<BR/><BR/>In the sefer Raishis Chochma Shaar Hakedusha it tells us that during “Tashmish” (marital relations), one should have the “tziur” picture of a taddik in mind. He bases this on the Gemmoro that relates that Rav Yochanan would sit in front of the Mikve (Bais Hamerchatz) so that the women immersing would see his face and think of his form, and “have beautiful children like me” the intent, as is obvious there, beautiful children spiritually.<BR/>Again, I'm not advocating or teaching anything, but if I heard that my childs mind was filled with the “tziyur” of the Rebbe or for that matter any other godol, instead of what he may readily snatch from the ‘net or youtube etc, Rachmono Litzlan, I would be overjoyed. I truly feel we live in a very different era even from when I was growing up just a few short years ago, even when we had TV and Movies, its very very different now. I wouldn’t belittle anything that leads and adds to yiras Shomayim.<BR/>When newly religious congregants come to me for advice how to “convince” or transform their spouses or immediate families, to become religious, I invariably tell them, “forget it” you will never convince anyone, but here is what I want you to do, place mezuzas on all the doors, get as many religious items and symbols and books in your home as possible, and live that life in a pleasant way, you will see that little by little it will have the desired effect. It has worked many times, at least to break down resistance. (this is BTW the Rebbes reason for the public Menorahs).<BR/>I would rather a video of the Rebbe be playing non-stop than another type of video. and maybe for variety I’ll even sign up for the monthly Rav Eliyashev video. if you add in darkness, you must add in light."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33214187055895253512008-09-12T20:15:00.000+03:002008-09-12T20:15:00.000+03:00LEvi,This get's very tiresome. Can show the Radava...LEvi,<BR/><BR/>This get's very tiresome. Can show the Radavaz who says that it is a good custom to stare at a Rebbi right before praying? In the Radvaz posted he was talknig about being in company with people like that and was not talking abouyt a custom. <BR/><BR/>About the Sema: Then certainly you owe us something. WE have given here a Teshuva by the Tzitz Eliezer that it is wrong or assur! He was a reknon possek accepted and learned by large groups of klal Yisroel. Can you provide one Possek (not hearsay that you "heard" and they "showed you but actually) and can can show us black on white that this is a proper custom?<BR/><BR/>AS A matter of fact, i once heard that over a decade ago they wanted to put a picture of the LR at the back of 770 and Rabbi Heller (I was told that he is one of the rabbis of the community) strongly prohibited it!<BR/><BR/>Being with a rebbie is not the same as having a picture in your siddur. Where does Radvaz say that you can place a picture in a siddur? Why can one have a picture of a revered person in a shul and one cannot even kiss his children in shul so as not to compare love of Hashem with any other love?<BR/><BR/>You start with allowing to stare at picture right before prayer, then you proceed with creating a custom to look at him before prayer and you start permitting during prayer and on and on...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33676136092338370522008-09-12T19:44:00.000+03:002008-09-12T19:44:00.000+03:00yankel said:"Where was there a "custom" as one of ...yankel said:<BR/>"Where was there a "custom" as one of the people phrased to look at a picture of the Baal Shem Tov before davening? to place the picture of Tzadik in Chassidic REbbe's synagogues?"<BR/><BR/>The custom, as far as I know, existed NOWHERE, and certainly not in Chabad. Stop ignoring the facts and accepting every bit of rechillus as fact (shelo k'din, incidentally). I've already pointed out that the Rebbe condemned even looking at him during davening - this is a matter of record, audio as well as print. The 'straw man' attacks aren't very original. And if a few lunatics reflect badly on a huge community, what do a few pedophiles reflect on the litvishe yeshivos ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69614084379791397712008-09-12T19:23:00.000+03:002008-09-12T19:23:00.000+03:00So Lazera joins Dr. Berger in demanding full discl...So Lazera joins Dr. Berger in demanding full disclaimers and 'clarifications' from Chabad, lack of substantial support for such demand notwithstanding.<BR/>I'll tell you what, Although YOU seem to be convinced that a few crazies in Chabad are the biggest problem confronting yiddishkeit today, many disagree with your priorities. In fact, many would say that the real avoda-zarah of today is the brainless 'godol worship' that leads some to blindly follow every mistaken position of such-and-such a rov/r.y/etc.<BR/>When a Rosh Yeshiva interferes in a child abuse problem, telling the victims that al-pi-halocho they have no claim (as there was no hachnosas ha'ever), when another rov intimidates askanim trying to deal with the situation by issuing hazmanas for 'motzi shem ra', when a famed (though slightly senile) rosh yeshiva humiliates another Rov at a TU convention, and 300 rabbonim sit by and watch silently, THESE are the problems facing the torah community today, and must be addressed. This holds true even for a RY who may wear 100 pairs of tzitzis, or may be a big macher in kashrus (or may even be matir eishes-ish), or may hold a big title in the Moetzes. But no, instead of dealing with these issues of hatzolas nefoshos or mamash retzicha, you attempt to deflect attention by screaming AZ at a few crazies hanging around Chabad. Once again, if you don't like Chabad's answers or the way they deal with their problems, go somewhere else and have a nice day. Nobody in Chabad owes you an explanation, and your harping on every little blip in the most critical fashion, belies your true intentions. "Kshot atzmecha tchilla..." applies to you as too!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com