tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post5733777313185485117..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Lakewood: How it redefined the nature of American Orthodox JudaismDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29377302119674701902013-06-07T00:19:40.372+03:002013-06-07T00:19:40.372+03:00"Just a Talmid said...RaP: Your description i..."Just a Talmid said...RaP: Your description is partially accurate. However, you have omitted one dynamic. There is a powerful political force emanating from BMG that has a stranglehold on the town. One need not be affiliated with BMG to be held under its control. Ask those who live there. In some sense, one might feel this is a positive thing. I can hear the argument. But it is highly debatable that this form of control is dictatorial, and is a negative. You are correct that there is much in Lakewood that is not BMG. But the degree of control by the BMG administration should not be minimized. As I noted above - I will not specify any examples, which would be embarrassing."<br /><br />You are right, but my underlying goal was to counterbalance the already critical tone and comments, both direct and implied, in the quoted Tablet article. <br /><br />What you point out is just the inevitable consequence of BMG being the "elephant in the room" and they would in fact be foolish if they did not try to wield their muscles. After all, BMG is now built and run on American corporate lines and like all corporations it is determined to retain its monopoly on the "market" not just in Lakewood but wherever they have a footprint on the ground. It can range from "dictatorial" to a "benevolent monarchy" but that is the way it works when living in a community that strives to live according to set rules. The Kotler clan are after all tough people, and Rav Aron Kotler z"l, the original founder, was the toughest one of all, just look at what he fought and accomplished even well-after his passing!<br /><br />It is an imperfect world we live in and that is just the way things work for better or worse. No doubt many mistakes are made and nepotism is not a pleasant thing. It smacks of the Mafia unfortunately but it is a universal phenomenon not unique to BMG and its hold over the Lakewood community at large. But as long as you are a peace-loving citizen and mind your own business you will never bump into the Mafia ever in your life. That is the way America works. Is Israel a better place in this regard? Not really. There are so many private vested interests and government controls that it's maybe worse. Are the Chasidic dynasties "democratic" or the yeshivas? or the various rabbinates? Entire towns and sectors are under various forms of strict controls by vested controlling interests. What else is new? <br /><br />So bottom line, there are always different ways of coming at a picture, does one want to focus on the fact that the cup is "half empty" or is it better to focus on the cup being "half full" -- objectivity and balancing criticism with praise is never easy. Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80794121833363875682013-06-06T14:46:13.402+03:002013-06-06T14:46:13.402+03:00RaP:
Your description is partially accurate. How...RaP:<br /><br />Your description is partially accurate. However, you have omitted one dynamic. There is a powerful political force emanating from BMG that has a stranglehold on the town. One need not be affiliated with BMG to be held under its control. Ask those who live there. In some sense, one might feel this is a positive thing. I can hear the argument. But it is highly debatable that this form of control is dictatorial, and is a negative.<br /><br />You are correct that there is much in Lakewood that is not BMG. But the degree of control by the BMG administration should not be minimized. As I noted above - I will not specify any examples, which would be embarrassing.Just a Talmidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9773291316042543592013-06-06T09:56:11.050+03:002013-06-06T09:56:11.050+03:00VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE: That the term "Lak...VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE: That the term "Lakewood" must be defined when used. <br /><br />On the one hand there is "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Medrash_Govoha" rel="nofollow">Beth Medrash Govoha</a>" (BMG) that is known as the "Lakewood yeshiva" or simply as "Lakewood" (Wikipedia: "As of 2012, the yeshiva has 6,500 married and undergraduate students,[1] making it one of the largest yeshivas in the world.")<br /><br />BUT, there is also the VAST attached growing numbers of communities, yeshivas and bais yaakovs for girls that are NOT officially part of BMG and that may or may not have rabbis and lay people who are connected with BMG. <br /><br />Many new Torah institutions and communities of American Charedim of mostly Ashkenazi non-Chasidim yeshivish type people are sprouting up all the time in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood_Township,_New_Jersey" rel="nofollow">Lakewood Township, New Jersey</a> area that have no prior or present connections with BMG at all, and those communities and yeshivas and institutions are often loosely referred to as being part of "Lakewood" but they have no official connection with the Lakewood that is BMG. <br /><br />Of course the main engine that started it all and that is pushing things along for the growth and appeal of Lakewood Township is the original "Lakewood yeshiva" or BMG, but by now when one hears the word or name Lakewood one must ask for clarification EXACTLY which Lakewood is being discussed.<br /><br />There are students learning in yeshivas not connected with BMG who try to pass themselves off as "learning in Lakewood" trying to create the impression that they are in BMG when anyone who knows, knows you have to find out more, because "Lakewood" today means lots of different things to different people.<br /><br />There are millionaires and rich Charedim with vast wealth living in Lakewood. There are a huge amount of growing businesses in Lakewood the place. There are lots of frum retirees streaming into Lakewood the place not into any yeshivas, there are frum girls being sent from all over America to bais yaakovs in Lakewood. There are young frum professionals who set up families in Lakewood and commute to other places like NYC to the north or Philadelphia to the south, and there are young professionals such as frum doctors who move to Lakewood to set up practices. It is quite a booming place. There are also growing numbers of Chasidim moving to Lakewood setting up chedorim and yeshivas for their children, and many new shtiebels are being set up.<br /><br />Lakewood is particularly attractive to non-Chasidic Ashlenazim, who are leaving the dominantly Chasidic centers of Boro Park and Monsey and don't wish to go to more "modern" places in New Jersey like Edison, Passaic and Teaneck. While Flatbush, Far Rockaway and the Five Towns are too expensive and there is too much connection with the influx of either Sefardim, Israelis, Russians, and too many Modern Orthodox influences. <br /><br />The Lakewood community is becoming "the place to be" for more serious-minded American Ashkenazi Yeshivisha Charedim. If course it helps that the "big engine" of BMG is constantly growing and expanding and pulling in thousands of new talmididm from all over America and the world all the time making it the "capital" of the Litvish yeshiva Torah world in America. <br /><br />By now, the Lakewood behemoth totally dwarfs all the other Litvish yeshiva combined and has basically wiped them out in terms of comparative size. If one deducts the elementary and high school divisions of the famous big Brooklyn yeshivas of Torah Voda'as, Mir, Chaim Berlin, Torah Temimah and a few others, all the combined students of post high bais medrash programs and kollel would maybe fit into about the quarter of BMG size.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54577563391450517362013-06-06T01:44:45.677+03:002013-06-06T01:44:45.677+03:00Cheap housing contributed more to the explosive gr...Cheap housing contributed more to the explosive growth of Lakewood than anything Rav Malkiel ever did.<br /><br />Graduates of Mir, Torah Vadaas, Chaim Berlin, Torah Temimah, etc. simply could not afford to raise a family in Borough Park or Flatbush.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38754684491668446142013-06-06T01:19:26.088+03:002013-06-06T01:19:26.088+03:00the gemorah says elef nicnosim vachod yotze (one t...the gemorah says elef nicnosim vachod yotze (one thousand go in and one comes out) having said that there are a thousand bochurim in Lakewood but nothing coming out the one that does come out to be the godal is not from Lakewood just look around who are the true gedolim not bmg talmidim!!observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41842829187148323222013-06-06T01:02:06.762+03:002013-06-06T01:02:06.762+03:00I do not know very much about Rav Schwartz's t...I do not know very much about Rav Schwartz's travels, but allow me to speculate.<br /><br />Perhaps Rav Itamar Schwartz is judging American Orthodoxy based on what he has seen in the American Orthodox communities that most champion him, which happen to be communities with extraordinary levels of gashmius.<br /><br />I would guess that the families with which he has stayed, as is typical where important guests visit, have the biggest and fanciest homes in the community -- and the fanciest wives to match.<br /><br />His exposure, therefore, has been to the very fanciest families within the fanciest communities -- hardly the basis to extrapolate to American Jews as a whole.<br /> Dovidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35629684671321423862013-06-05T23:07:39.098+03:002013-06-05T23:07:39.098+03:00Much as I adore the proliferation of biographies o...Much as I adore the proliferation of biographies of the lives of gedolim of yesteryear (of all factions of the frum world), I struggle with the implications that seem popular. We are told about the foolishness of mimicking, yet we seem to excel in this. The problem is not just the superficiality that comes with the "acting as if", but the misapplication of values. If one would attempt to repair an automobile engine using parts made for another make and model, there is a strong chance that the motor will not function correctly. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT"L had a mission that was actually completed many years ago, and his strategies were appropriate for that mission. He undertook to transplant yeshivos in America. This required a focus on the excellence in learning that was required, accompanied by the austerity of lifestyle that would ward off the influences of modernity. He accomplished this well, and led the yeshiva that produced many roshei yeshivos that spread out across United States. The "Kollel" concept was similarly brilliant, and contributed greatly to Torah in America.<br /><br />Generalizing to the masses as well as maintaining the broad scale of this model into today's era is deserving of tough questioning.<br /><br />1 - We have a community that cannot sustain itself, having guided too many into low paying jobs appropriate for the uneducated and untrained.<br />2 - Many who went into chinuch got into trouble, being unqualified. Still many of them struggle to cope with the challenges of the present time.<br />3 - The overgrown yeshiva model is frighteningly poor. It guarantees that no talmid has a Rav Muvhak, essentially violating the edict of the mishna - עשה לך רב. This deteriorates into chaos rather quickly.<br />4 - The Lakewood model, in which there was intense control over the community, is debatable altogether. Even if we feel it is positive, it is impossible to do with true leadership when this community is huge. The environment is one of control, dictatorial patterns, and often frank bullying. I do not need to explain this with examples which could be embarrassing.<br />5 - The Kollel lifestyle was never intended to become the norm for an entire community. We now witness the very supporters of the yeshiva community - the baalei batim who produce income while remaining true to Torah - shunned in most serious ways. Their children are relegated to second choice yeshivos, while the "first choice yeshivos" who only serve kollel families seek their financial backing. The Zevuluns of the world are easily discarded, except at fund raising events. Rav Aharon ZT"L may have sought to place Torah on a pedestal, but he was nowhere near excluding the working frum as is experienced today.<br /><br />Bottom line - Rav Aharon's dream was beautiful, and he was B"H successful. However, it is being misapplied at the current scale and in the present time.Just a Talmidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57401864874979651072013-06-05T20:10:15.649+03:002013-06-05T20:10:15.649+03:00Rav Aharon never wanted a "mega Yeshiva"...Rav Aharon never wanted a "mega Yeshiva", he wanted a hundred or so Talmidim and no more. It was only Rav Shneur and subsequently Rav Malkiel together with R' Aharon Kotler, CEO that made the Yeshiva and the community into what it is today. Rav Aharon would probably not want his "100" Talmidim to be part of the American life but then again he never wanted this exclusive approach for the masses.<br /> Torah Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03106220935439713748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43402220665679478712013-06-05T17:03:23.577+03:002013-06-05T17:03:23.577+03:00And btw - the article mentioned a few times the or...And btw - the article mentioned a few times the original 14 bochurim. Anyone know who those were, perhaps a list?Superintendant Chalmersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64106388304656604572013-06-05T17:02:49.163+03:002013-06-05T17:02:49.163+03:00While I think this article is accurate overall, an...While I think this article is accurate overall, and it's a fact that many Lakewood alumni do become part of the American bourgeoise, and part of American corporate culture (no judgments from me, I myself am part of it) I think an important question that remains unasked is - would Rav Aharon be pleased with that development? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing in his time, you didn't have people leaving BMG to law school etc. Would he have wanted his yeshiva to look like it does now? I'm not so sure of the answer...Superintendant Chalmersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44608854858832282452013-06-05T17:01:20.641+03:002013-06-05T17:01:20.641+03:00R' Itamar Schwartz, author of the Bilvavi Mish...R' Itamar Schwartz, author of the Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh, wrote a blistering, passionate essay about the wealth and materialism he perceived in the American Orthodox community:<br /><br />http://bilvavi.net/content/view/385/57/<br /><br />I understand and identify with his call for a simpler lifestyle, but I don't agree with the Israeli charedi approach that looks down on work. In my book, Avos 2:2 is eternally true.Bilvavi Fannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71745693810163339632013-06-05T16:27:47.623+03:002013-06-05T16:27:47.623+03:00Ken Yehi Ratzon!Ken Yehi Ratzon!Torah Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03106220935439713748noreply@blogger.com