tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post547911421756984448..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rav Eliashiv: Denounces rabbis who force a GetDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3305061492417202132015-04-14T13:23:12.554+03:002015-04-14T13:23:12.554+03:00and (connecting this to another new thread): rabbi...and (connecting this to another new thread): rabbis who give bribesBen Waxmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-34108289324353954972012-05-01T01:45:38.825+03:002012-05-01T01:45:38.825+03:00I have spoken to many rabbonim who are experts in ...I have spoken to many rabbonim who are experts in Gittin and they all say that what ORA is doing is wrong. Rabbi Ralbag who signed the Siruv against Aharon told me and another person that the SIruv is not a command to divorce, and that demonstrating is forbidden as it could make a coerced and invalid GET. Therefore ORA with the backing of RHS, are inventing and lying and terrorizing people, including children. The gemora in BM second perek says that children cannot forgive. If you terrorize a child, even the child cannot forgive you. But the fanatics only know one thing, help the Agunah. RHS tells us how, anyway you can, even if you have to terrorize children, sick people, people who have nothing to do with the husband except that he is a relative. Anyone this cruel is like a Nazi whose mistaken idealism led them to kill even small children.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3527919179382169292012-05-01T01:41:31.626+03:002012-05-01T01:41:31.626+03:00One of the more positive outcomes of this very pai...One of the more positive outcomes of this very painful controversy is that I came across the blog or R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer shlita, and found his knowledge of Torah to be very impressive. Sometimes good things emerge from the not so good!Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42424089415288311112012-04-30T21:27:33.152+03:002012-04-30T21:27:33.152+03:00I am only describing one of the three tapes in my ...I am only describing one of the three tapes in my comment above<br /><br />See this post for a description of all three<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/does-rav-schachter-permit-beatings-3.htmlDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87727162726334915202012-04-30T21:26:43.767+03:002012-04-30T21:26:43.767+03:00I am only describing one of the three tapes in my ...I am only describing one of the three tapes in my comment above<br /><br />See this post for a description of all three<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/does-rav-schachter-permit-beatings-3.htmlDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2422177636535280102012-04-30T21:25:59.079+03:002012-04-30T21:25:59.079+03:00I am only describing one of the three tapes in my ...I am only describing one of the three tapes in my comment above<br /><br />See this post for a description of all three<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/does-rav-schachter-permit-beatings-3.htmlDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19299803277742645002012-04-30T20:11:09.047+03:002012-04-30T20:11:09.047+03:00This is flat out wrong. I address the assertion in...This is flat out wrong. I address the assertion in the notes to<br />http://rygb.blogspot.com/2012/04/mechooh-continued.htmlYosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60389138590532975842012-04-30T18:21:23.726+03:002012-04-30T18:21:23.726+03:00Rav Schachter has also claimed that he rules based...Rav Schachter has also claimed that he rules based on the information presented to him by Stern/ORA. GIGO, if bad information is being fed to any Gadol it will result in a bad psak, as we have seen here, when Rav Eliashiv had to revise his stance on Shabbos Elevators three times based on who was feeding him the information.<br /><br /><i> his opinion about beating husbands unto death is plain murder that has nothing to do with halacha, and I hope to prepare this in more depth.</i><br />Seriously you need to get off this. You are like a pitbull with a bone, only it's an imaginary bone. <b>Your own brother</b> has even said this is not what Schachter said. So stop inventing things to attack your opponents with and deal with the issues already.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72286077807850443022012-04-30T18:15:51.486+03:002012-04-30T18:15:51.486+03:00But, in this case, isn't it an aveira to point...But, in this case, isn't it an aveira to point out that children born from a marriage contracted after a forced get might be mamzerim?<br /><br />There are so many opinions who allow it, so why would we want to know? The same as the other did not want to know...<br /><br />By the way: if you use the R. Moshe Feinstein approach you described, I think it would be possible to find fault with any marriage: perhaps one of the edim was not kosher? Perhaps there was one non-kosher ed among the guests and was not excluded? Perhaps there was a problem with the ketubah? Perhaps it was a Mekach taut?<br /><br />So it seems very illogical to be so generous on the hand and so restrictive on the other...Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38996772596035196212012-04-30T18:03:48.110+03:002012-04-30T18:03:48.110+03:00So if an evil-meaning person goes and reveals (and...So if an evil-meaning person goes and reveals (and proves) after the marriage that Mrs. xy is a mamzer, the husband is forced to give a get? (with beatings??)Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85443824949807350132012-04-30T18:00:52.424+03:002012-04-30T18:00:52.424+03:00Someone said that this has nothing to do with ORA....Someone said that this has nothing to do with ORA. I spoke to Rav Eliyashev shlit"o about coerced Gittin and this is an extremely problematic case, perhaps one of the worst, because they publicly humiliate the husband which is like murder in chazal,and even plain humiliations are forbidden as coercion by the Rashbo and the greatest poskim, including the Bais Yosef and Shach, and because ORA works on getting the husband fired which is coercion of money that we pasken invalidates the GET.See Michtova MaEliyohu at the end of chapter 19 he says in the name of "all of the rishonim" with perhaps some exceptions that ONES MOMONE is ONES or a GET given without the will of the husband and it is invalid.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28803084319331452032012-04-30T17:43:38.990+03:002012-04-30T17:43:38.990+03:00James,
You claim that ORA's Beth Din does not ...James,<br />You claim that ORA's Beth Din does not include Rabbi Schachter. I spoke to Rabbi Stern and he told me that everything he does is based on the opinion of Rabbi Schachter. I surely do not attack the idealists at ORA, but I do attack Rabbi Schachter. He does not know how to pasken and his opinion about beating husbands unto death is plain murder that has nothing to do with halacha, and I hope to prepare this in more depth.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19283469165322479272012-04-30T17:40:24.240+03:002012-04-30T17:40:24.240+03:00"that is because as long as we don't know..."that is because as long as we don't know that someone is a mamzer ie. born of a prohibited relationship - there is no issur to marry him/her."<br /><br />In a previous thread (where I proposed to declare us all sofek mamzer) you stated that someone who is doubtful mamzer could marry neither a mamzer, nor a non-mamzer, nor anyone at all.<br /><br />So what is it?<br />================<br />If a person has been identified as a sofek mamzer - then he is stuck. If it is unknown and the issue has been raised then no issur is done in marrying. In contrast if you c.v. eat treif food - you do an aveira even though you didn't know. The foot itself is inherently forbidden. In contrast a mamzer is not forbidden unless there is awareness of the status.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45728679826731654232012-04-30T17:29:01.856+03:002012-04-30T17:29:01.856+03:00Thanks for the explanation. I don't understand...Thanks for the explanation. I don't understand the Rav Moshe story, because it shouldn't just matter whether the rabbi who officiated is observant, it should also matter whether the two witnesses were observant. The chance is virtually nil that the witnesses at a non-Orthodox wedding would be observant. Even if they are observant by Conservative standards, that is not really observant, because they leave out or modify many mitzvot (for example, they don't believe in counting seven days before going to the mikvah). And it would seem the investigation into whether they are observant is not really complete unless you figure out whether and when the wife goes to the mikvah -- which is of course impossible without bugging the house and hiring a private eye.yeshayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6237061349230842132012-04-30T16:27:43.102+03:002012-04-30T16:27:43.102+03:00I spoke at length with Rav Elyashev shlit"o a...I spoke at length with Rav Elyashev shlit"o about coercing a GET some decades ago, and this is exactly what he said, although in my case I had more particulars than is mentioned in this short letter of his. But there is no question that this is his opinion.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7265863008333031082012-04-30T16:17:54.347+03:002012-04-30T16:17:54.347+03:00"that is because as long as we don't know..."that is because as long as we don't know that someone is a mamzer ie. born of a prohibited relationship - there is no issur to marry him/her."<br /> <br />In a previous thread (where I proposed to declare us all sofek mamzer) you stated that someone who is doubtful mamzer could marry neither a mamzer, nor a non-mamzer, nor anyone at all.<br /><br />So what is it?Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29431175337659868562012-04-30T15:22:51.752+03:002012-04-30T15:22:51.752+03:00The laws of mamzerim are interesting. It is import...The laws of mamzerim are interesting. It is important that we do whatever we can to prevent a person giving birth to a mamzer. However Rav Moshe Feinstein states that even though Elijahu will come and tell us which among the suspected cases of mamzerim and other yichus probelms is really not a mamzer - he is not going to tell us who is a mamzer.<br /><br />that is because as long as we don't know that someone is a mamzer ie. born of a prohibited relationship - there is no issur to marry him/her. Therefore if we suspect someone might be a mamzer - it is important not to investigate but to contact a major posek.<br /><br />there was a story with Rav Moshe that a girl whose parents were Conservative Jews on their second marriage - called up Rav Moshe to ask if she was a mamzer. He replied that she could assume that since the parents were married by a Conservative or Reform rabbi the first marriage was not valid and therefore she was not a mamzer. But being frum she investigated further and found out that the rabbi was in fact Shomer mitzvos and thus the first marriage was good. She called back Rav Moshe and he groaned and said, "Why did you investigate? There is nothing I can do now."<br /><br />the problem in these cases is whether there will be a concern for children born from Modern Orthodox marriages and divorces in the coming generations. Will they become stigmatized because of the chashash of mamzerus. That is a much greater problem than a bal teshuva with the question of ben/bas niddah.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71046499006654874572012-04-30T14:07:33.003+03:002012-04-30T14:07:33.003+03:00What I do not understand either is that you are so...What I do not understand either is that you are so nitpicking about possible ramifications of administrative procedures for Mamzerut.<br /><br />However, when you have a true Mamzer in front of you (someone born of incest or an adulterous relation), you close your eyes and do not want to know. Ha Ikkar that the apparitions are kept.Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31516504056082903332012-04-30T14:05:49.990+03:002012-04-30T14:05:49.990+03:00The haredim are not very wellcoming, in general, t...The haredim are not very wellcoming, in general, to marry people that are not like them or were not always like them. So nothing new there...Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35957095775332287642012-04-30T12:48:27.057+03:002012-04-30T12:48:27.057+03:00Doh! <facepalm>Doh! <facepalm>Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48542390127468394622012-04-30T12:06:25.500+03:002012-04-30T12:06:25.500+03:00Shaul B. - with all respects - I don't underst...Shaul B. - with all respects - I don't understand why you didn't notice the date on this. It is from the Yated Neeman of June 24, 2005!Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-76254755854774003562012-04-30T11:37:30.673+03:002012-04-30T11:37:30.673+03:00With all respect, how is it possible for Rav Elyas...With all respect, how is it possible for Rav Elyashiv shlit"a, in his convalescent state, to have given any kind of serious attention to this question at all? Personally I don't believe he was even consulted, and that this letter was "signed" on his behalf by askanim who believed they knew what he would have said, had he been able to. It is very difficult to give credence to any statement purportedly made by Rav Elyashiv these days.Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29845840216013416992012-04-30T08:27:08.691+03:002012-04-30T08:27:08.691+03:00For all those who haven't listened to Rabbi Sc...For all those who haven't listened to Rabbi Schachters 3 shiurim on Agunot on yutorah.com, I will briefly summarize them.<br /><br />1)<br />In his shiur called options for Agunahs listen from 10-14 minutes. He does state what Rav Dovid Eidonsohn Shlitta has claimed and says that in 99% of the cases today where marriages are broken and two are no longer living together of course we can be kofin oso bshotin (use force with sticks!!!) Listen for yourself minute 13 to be exact: He brings down 3 categories and says almost all cases today are in the category of kofin oso bshottim. (He doesn't tell people to go do it but he says the cases fall into the category where physical force is permitted)<br />2), <br />In the Plight of Agunah shiur, Rabbi Schachter clearly explains that force CAN NOT BE USED (minute 50-101 to be exact). He states clearly in minute 52 (WE DON"T EVEN DO THE HARCHAKAS OF R'TAM today like the Gevoras Anishim of Schach quoted by pischa yeshuva 154:21) then he says in the end we just humiliate which is a much lesser pressure then cutting the guy off financially. He states we are machmir for (the gevoras anashim the shach). In minute 58 he says if we can't solve this issue we may have to go back to the takanas of the geonim (and the shitta of the Rambam) where forcing with actual violence is permitted in cases of meus alai if we have no choice... <br /><br />In his most recent 2012 shiur (Fighting the Agunah Crises minute 23 to exact)), Rabbi Schachter claims that today we are actually following the harchakas of R'tam and bases the actions of the ORA on chacham ovadias teshuvot. He mentions that R'tam held that one can't use force but could humiliate the husband, and He says that is what he relies upon today)<br /><br />In Summary: (Please listen to the shiurim yourselves and you will find that Rabbi Schachter says 3 different approaches in all 3 shiurim.<br />1) todays cases are almost always where physichal force can be used because the couple is no longer living together. (He doesn't say to do it but he says the cases fall into the category in Shulchan Aruch where physical force can be used.<br />2) Today we DONT do the harchakas of R'tam and are machmir for the pitcha teshuva (shach) which says (according to Rabbi Schachter)to cut off the guy financially. He says we only humiliate which is much less from of pressure that doesn't invalidate a GET. He states if things get much worse we may have to use actual force like the Rambam's oppinion (but he never mentions to use actual violence)<br />3) He says we DO follow the harchakas of R'tam based upon Chacham Ovadia. In this shiur he calls humiliation as part of the harchakas of R'tam unlike shiur 2, and he doesn't state or imply any allowances of actual physical force. <br /><br />Can someone please listen to his 3 shiurim (to save you time just listen to the minutes that I quoted above) and try to explain his shitta in a coherrent manner. I personally feel the above 3 shiurim totally contradict themselves and am wondering if anyone can explain how the shiurim don't contradict each other.Yitzy Hillelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68102778115849393192012-04-30T08:12:25.327+03:002012-04-30T08:12:25.327+03:00Moshe Goldstein is correct, of course. This letter...Moshe Goldstein is correct, of course. This letter has absolutely no bearing on the Get ORA issue and its introduction here is a cynical tactic, a red herring.Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41348620644500194902012-04-30T08:09:48.139+03:002012-04-30T08:09:48.139+03:00The BDA has noting to do with this case. The psak...The BDA has noting to do with this case. The psak din was issued by a Beth Din that included Rav Shmuel Kemenestky.Jamesnoreply@blogger.com