tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post4727698349778571012..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Frum Follies fabricates another lie - Adina CohenDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69086780405351190982014-12-11T17:54:42.961+02:002014-12-11T17:54:42.961+02:00My screen name is something silly I made up on the...My screen name is something silly I made up on the spur of the moment without giving it much thought. Why would I care if someone mocks it? It is a meaningless handle.<br /><br />In any case, I apologize for some of the sharper sobriquets I applied to you in the course of our discussion. Please forgive those.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69996818573443102732014-12-11T13:21:07.402+02:002014-12-11T13:21:07.402+02:00please move this to the post about the lawsuitplease move this to the post about the lawsuitDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-336503211673642722014-12-11T13:15:05.864+02:002014-12-11T13:15:05.864+02:00Kishkeyum,
I'm not sure I have more to contri...Kishkeyum,<br /><br />I'm not sure I have more to contribute at this this time. I appreciate your taking my barbs at your screen name. I pray that all single women find good matches and establish beautiful families.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30927348945969976852014-12-11T06:17:39.089+02:002014-12-11T06:17:39.089+02:00I imagine they convinced the court that their repu...I imagine they convinced the court that their reputations would be harmed if their names were publicized. Even you should be able to figure that out yourself.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71311065751853938962014-12-11T01:22:38.219+02:002014-12-11T01:22:38.219+02:00"...this Court finds that plaintiffs have est..."...this Court finds that plaintiffs have established special circumstances to warrant authorization to proceed anonymously...." I wonder what that's all about. Any thoughts Monkeyum? How about you, David?Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73554679919133113102014-12-10T23:36:05.341+02:002014-12-10T23:36:05.341+02:00"@Joe Orlow - what are you standing by."..."@Joe Orlow - what are you standing by."<br /><br />I stand by the way I worded my original comments. I did not endorse anything Lopin commented. I stand by my characterization of the letter FF posted as being a real letter from a real Madricha. Someone who taught me years ago at a school is my teacher, and I will refer to them as such, whether or not they are still teaching at that school. The Madricha apparently addressed her letter in part to alumni, some of whom presumably had her as a Madricha.<br /><br />"In what sense do the guidelines cover this situation - are you claiming that there need to be indoctrination session to uproot any sense of gratitude to Meisels for the assistance he provided them"<br /><br />The guidelines were put in place to ensure that the situation that occurred at the seminary not repeat itself. What did happen at the seminary? A teacher said something that should not be said, and did something that should not be done. Allegedly, that teacher is Rabbi Meisels. He removed himself or was removed, specifically so that his contact with the students would be limited and thus the whole question of what he might say or do in the future with them is moot.<br /><br />"How should the teachers have handled this - when in fact the beis din has not dealt with this? Were the teachers supposed to issue a definitive psak on what happened?"<br /><br />I think it is the role of the teachers is to keep a distance between the alleged molester and students that he had past contact with. Is it possible that some teachers are unaware that Rabbi Meisels was removed because of his alleged questionable contact? I hope not.<br /><br />"Please enlighten us about your canary theory"<br /><br />Adina, perhaps to her credit, was trying to make peace. Nevertheless, in the course of doing so it would involve communications sent from former students that would likely have contact info connected to it, such as email addresses in headers, return addresses on letters, etc. Thus, if the goal of the school is to be more sensitive to the fact that Rabbi Meisels allegedly molested women, then the school should be concerned if the girls are writing him kind letters that he may respond to in kind.<br /><br />In a mine, the canary detects poisonous gases, even the minutest amounts. The email, I wrote, was the canary. The fact that the email was apparently unchallenged alerted the rest of us that the school was seemingly unconcerned by this minute opening that Rabbi Meisels could exploit. "Why thank you, Miss Plonit, for your heartfelt words. I know the Bais Din feels we shouldn't meet, but a cup of coffee in a public café...." "But -- Rabbi Meisels...!" "Shah shah shah. It's my way of expressing gratitude. Not the end of the world, now is it? Let this be our little secret."<br /><br />"The CBD provided guidelines for Meisels relationship with the girls and school - but did it also provide guideines for the teachers and students as to how they are to think and feel?"<br /><br />If the Bais Din told Rabbi Meisels to stay away from students, the teachers can figure out that students should stay away from Rabbi Meisels. Unless the school is to take a strict reading of the guidelines and argue they have no obligation to notify students who associate with Rabbi Meisels that Rabbi Meisels is enjoined by a Bais Din to keep his distance from them.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33643794958014547912014-12-10T21:17:31.995+02:002014-12-10T21:17:31.995+02:00By your own admission, you know nothing of this se...By your own admission, you know nothing of this second lawsuit other than what I have told you. in fact, until I mentioned it, you did not know it existed. Yet, you have no problem composing an eight-paragraph theory about it. You blaze new trails in narishkeit.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8255830844538970462014-12-10T20:56:25.266+02:002014-12-10T20:56:25.266+02:00@Joe Orlow - what are you standing by. The false c...@Joe Orlow - what are you standing by. The false claim that she was employed by Rabbi Kahana? The false claim that she is presently employed as a madriacha at one of the four seminaries? The true fact that Meislels helped her out when her mother was murdered and at other times and she feels very grateful for that help? That there are many girls who were helped by Meisels and they still are appreciative? In what sense do the guidelines cover this situation - are you claiming that there need to be indoctrination session to uproot any sense of gratitude to Meisels for the assistance he provided them<br /><br />How should the teachers have handled this - when in fact the beis din has not dealt with this? Were the teachers supposed to issue a definitive psak on what happened?<br /><br />Please enlighten us about your canary theory - is Adina a canary who keeled over in a mine from the poisonous gas of Meisels? Perhaps you mean that Adina is proof that there are girls who have strong loyalty to those that offered critivcal assistance and you want the teachers to tell them that whatever he did was because he was a sexual predator not a rabbi who cared for them. If so do you have proof that that is true?<br /><br />Bottom line your request seems rather impossible without a definite psak from the beis din. The CBD provided guidelines for Meisels relationship with the girls and school - but did it also provide guideines for the teachers and students as to how they are to think and feel?Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29507738787843673612014-12-10T20:47:57.753+02:002014-12-10T20:47:57.753+02:00I'm consistently underwhelmed by your shaky lo...I'm consistently underwhelmed by your shaky logic but this breaks new ground. You admit [and demonstrate] that you actually know virtually nothing factual about the case. All you know is some hearsay, allegations, and something about some lawsuits, but you're willing to draw real conclusions that have lifelong implications for real people! <br />Mind-boggling really. Play with people, their reputations and parnossos as if it's all just a bit of play-do and don't give it a second thought. <br />Another option might be to accept that you don't know facts and therefore ought to accept Chazal's recommendation of שתיקה יפה. Your silence would add more to this board than anything you could possibly say.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43778096987986650902014-12-10T20:39:59.528+02:002014-12-10T20:39:59.528+02:00"So we have, in my book, contradictory eviden..."So we have, in my book, contradictory evidence: Rabbi Meisels confession on one hand, and two lawsuits on the other hand."<br /><br />You, like other Lopinite tipshim, consistently confuse lawsuits with evidence. It's foolishness, but there's no point in dwelling on it. It's clear that you believe what you want to believe. You construct yourr theories afterward to fit your preferred narrative.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70365152531792504902014-12-10T20:36:26.405+02:002014-12-10T20:36:26.405+02:00This whole "one hug" thing is a figment ...This whole "one hug" thing is a figment of your foolish imagination, augmented by the dumpster diving you engage in at Lopin's site. What I've said all along is that he admitted to negiah only. This remains true. I'll leave you to construct elaborate hug theories with your fellow clods on Frum Follies.<br /><br />As for your supposed "trickery," you may rest assured that had I not wanted to speak of the second lawsuit, your inane comment would not have induced me to. In fact, the second lawsuit is common knowledge among those who actually know something about this case. You, however, opine endlessly, but know little, and understand less.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77416323030081363342014-12-10T20:24:30.897+02:002014-12-10T20:24:30.897+02:00Forgive me, but I can't send them because I ha...Forgive me, but I can't send them because I have no clue at this point how to get them. I'm relying on Kishke-kootchy in regard to them. She seems informed. I can ask my attorney about it, though, and will get back to you.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41981708532122431192014-12-10T20:11:47.818+02:002014-12-10T20:11:47.818+02:00@Joe Orlow - please send me the court filings of t...@Joe Orlow - please send me the court filings of the lawsuit so I can post them. Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18578237553951832192014-12-10T19:31:08.268+02:002014-12-10T19:31:08.268+02:00I have to admit that what I did was tainted with f...I have to admit that what I did was tainted with foolishness, since I got close to being G'naivos Ha'daas, trickery. I wanted you to clarify what you meant by "this lawsuit", without outright asking you.<br /><br />Now, you have clearly indicated that you hold that these two girls bringing the lawsuit are claiming they were molested. But wait, there was supposed to be only one hug! Perhaps it was a group hug? This evidence, of the existence of these lawsuits, and your averring that the girls' are claiming they were molested, means there's a contradiction here somewhere.<br /><br />Was there one hug, two hugs, or no hugs?<br />Bringing a lawsuit is heavy stuff. If the plaintiff loses, she may have to pay her opponent's legal fees if the judge thinks the case was frivolous. There are two lawsuits, so I think there's a medium chance there were two hugs. That evidence for two hugs is about as strong as the other evidence presented that there was one hug, namely, a recorded confession by Rabbi Meisels.<br /><br />So we have, in my book, contradictory evidence: Rabbi Meisels confession on one hand, and two lawsuits on the other hand. So I conclude there's evidence for more than one hug. I think reasonable people can disagree here. Isn't that the purpose of the comments section? I'm just a blogista, and don't look to pick a fight with anyone. I'm here to learn. But I maintain either there was more than one hug, or there were no hugs. We either accept all medium level evidence, or reject it. Furthermore, the same Bais Din that apparently recorded Rabbi Meisels confessing about a hug, also is telling people Rabbi Meisels confessed to other things.<br /><br />Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn pointed out to me in a comment on another post that the recorded confession was heard by people outside the Bais Din. If I understand correctly, any other confessions that have been mentioned here and elsewhere have apparently not been shared so widely, if they even exist. So he concludes there's only evidence for a hug and nothing more.<br /><br />Along those lines, I suppose, a recording can be construed as more compelling than two lawsuits that could yet be thrown out. <br /><br />I disagree with that line of reasoning, though. I say all the evidence is kind of shaky, and we either accept all of it or none of it.<br /><br />And these apparent exceptions of Jewish girls taking their teacher to court does not convince me that I am mistaken in my belief that Jewish girls are trained and/or browbeaten into not testifying. I will illustrate with my own case to counter yours. A Jewish girl in New York was raped years ago and her rapist was arrested by the police but she declined to cooperate, I was told, so as not to adversely affect her marriage prospects. If you want details, I can refer you to a source. Please contact me by email or telephone.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23979904077032264832014-12-10T15:12:26.048+02:002014-12-10T15:12:26.048+02:00Its funny. This supposed anonymous "talmid&qu...Its funny. This supposed anonymous "talmid" has made three previous comments on Disqus.<br /><br />Two of them are aimed at casting aspirations at the seminaries <em>after</em> a prominent letter of support was released and try to minimize the significance of the letter.<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/08/seminary-scandal-new-letter-from.html#comment-1563774400<br /><br />And then see his response...<br /><br /><em>The conspiracies attributed to him in many comments are ridiculous, but they needlessly impugn his character.</em><br /><br /><br /><br />Well, anyone think that this may be Mr. Gottesman himself seeking to salvage a teeny bit of his reputation here on blogsphere?Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68561417458718964322014-12-10T14:33:06.808+02:002014-12-10T14:33:06.808+02:00To Joseph Orlow:
1) You claimed that girls were t...To Joseph Orlow:<br /><br />1) You claimed that girls were taught not to testify<br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/12/frum-follies-fabricates-another-lie.html#comment-1733054464<br /><br />2) You further claimed that girls who do testify would not be able to get married.<br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/12/frum-follies-fabricates-another-lie.html#comment-1733359961<br /><br />3) Those girls who now filed a lawsuit against Mr. Meisels are now engaged.<br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/12/frum-follies-fabricates-another-lie.html#comment-1733537828<br /><br />4) You responded by showing a lack of awareness about the actual lawsuit you are quoting and professing about. <br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/12/frum-follies-fabricates-another-lie.html#comment-1734375597<br /><br /><br /><br />Now that you've been made aware of the actual facts, do you still remain with your original opinion about these seminaries?<br /><br /><br />You made a similar accusation against a "seminary madricha". Rabbi Eidensohn has cleared up the facts. Can you clear up your position on this as well? Thank you.<br /><br /><br />Just as quick as we are to condemn people, we have to respond with at least the same speed when err and and correct our misconception and mistake.Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83831497510299658312014-12-10T14:17:19.805+02:002014-12-10T14:17:19.805+02:00but the two accusers in this case have both gotten...<em>but the two accusers in this case have both gotten engaged since filing suit.</em><br /><br /><br />So, will they be getting a full kesubah? Will they invite the CBD to read the kesubah? Will we be able to see the video of the reading of the kesubah?Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29548001074834233102014-12-10T14:14:19.890+02:002014-12-10T14:14:19.890+02:00Why so hasty? You're only dealing with דיני נפ...<em>Why so hasty? You're only dealing with דיני נפשות but you act as if it was eating ice cream.</em><br /><br /><br />Why may a person not take a long distance trip with a person who violates the Torah?<br /><br /><br />Same here. If he doesn't value his own life, his own destiny, his family's heritage - why do you think he would value or be "chos" on anyone else's life?Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45507803676975096152014-12-10T09:25:11.711+02:002014-12-10T09:25:11.711+02:00You're the fool. There are two lawsuits. The s...You're the fool. There are two lawsuits. The second, still pending, was brought by the two accusers. Both of whom have since become engaged.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-34079596695823796552014-12-10T07:15:48.287+02:002014-12-10T07:15:48.287+02:00Why so hasty? You're only dealing with דיני נפ...Why so hasty? You're only dealing with דיני נפשות but you act as if it was eating ice cream. <br />Slow down and reflect on your actions for a moment.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-40198046450960773152014-12-10T07:14:50.533+02:002014-12-10T07:14:50.533+02:00You couldn't possibly be concerned with foul c...You couldn't possibly be concerned with foul characters or you wouldn't be spending so much time with the lovable little "truthseeker" - a fould character if there ever was one.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18270212899132212014-12-10T07:13:23.371+02:002014-12-10T07:13:23.371+02:00While you're busy being so concerned about imp...While you're busy being so concerned about impugning the character of people, perhaps ask Mr. Gottesman why he felt so free to impugn the character of all the staff members? Or was that okay because he once gave you a chabura? <br />A prominent Beis Din in Eretz Yisroel specifically highlighted his awful behavior and criticized it. If you gave a hoot about the truth you'd look at the letters from the Beis Din which are found on this site and educate yourself as to the true nature of your former Rosh Chabura.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12573549940746406902014-12-10T05:25:15.931+02:002014-12-10T05:25:15.931+02:00Fool! The lawsuit wasn't brought by girls who ...Fool! The lawsuit wasn't brought by girls who each claimed they were molested. It was brought by girls who claimed they would be at risk of molestation if they went to the school this year. "'...The conspirators hoped that this scheme would force class plaintiffs into leaving their daughters in The Seminaries even though that they were not safe because the conspirators would withhold their tuition deposits.'" Get away from me.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73435609621782852592014-12-09T23:22:44.841+02:002014-12-09T23:22:44.841+02:00If you regret the error, why have you not removed ...If you regret the error, why have you not removed Rabbi Kahane's picture?? He has nothing to do with the post! Doesnt's seem like you regret it!claritynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20646233260649451452014-12-09T19:56:35.718+02:002014-12-09T19:56:35.718+02:00Unfortunately they don't seem to be ridiculous...Unfortunately they don't seem to be ridiculous, look at the letter from the IBD describing his behavior.shlomonoreply@blogger.com