tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post4574754855940870624..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Pure Torah law vs. pragmatic "weeding out the thorns" - BM 83bDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger135125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24196458450936287702023-03-22T08:14:26.159+02:002023-03-22T08:14:26.159+02:00http://google.is<a href="http://google.is/" rel="nofollow">http://google.is</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46485046843444105082022-01-24T03:45:28.601+02:002022-01-24T03:45:28.601+02:00Even an aral has medical use nowadays
https://www...Even an aral has medical use nowadays<br /><br />https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/why-human-foreskin-is-a-hot-commodity-in-science?utm_source&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign&fbclid=IwAR29HmG-_D8CxNarHhu3tkoQI7y_eMMGas3PL6hJhm9tNfR2z-DDi2iHnN8Kalonymus HaQatannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57965649251992700062022-01-24T00:16:26.694+02:002022-01-24T00:16:26.694+02:00in this case they may well bein this case they may well beKalonymus HaQatannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86813888188060359492022-01-23T23:56:20.055+02:002022-01-23T23:56:20.055+02:00Wow all roshei yeshivas are aware of every dollar ...Wow all roshei yeshivas are aware of every dollar of contributions?!Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90252238292394770882022-01-23T23:53:06.152+02:002022-01-23T23:53:06.152+02:00what a. profound defensewhat a. profound defenseDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62127484539417436052012-06-21T18:24:43.867+03:002012-06-21T18:24:43.867+03:00That sounds like a fair proposal.That sounds like a fair proposal.Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8226487008836161482012-06-21T17:33:45.912+03:002012-06-21T17:33:45.912+03:00Ploni if you would like to write a guest post to o...Ploni if you would like to write a guest post to open a thread on the topic it would be fine with meDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-40803245480996451212012-06-21T17:09:32.844+03:002012-06-21T17:09:32.844+03:00I have absolutely no objection to closing this thr...I have absolutely no objection to closing this thread, especially since you've had the fortitude to open a similar thread, namely the "4 views on Rabbinic role".<br /><br />Like David Kempsky states, I too "would have preferred that you offer answers to the issues (they) [we] raise".<br /><br /><br />With all due respect, DT - כוונתך רצוי' ואין מעשיך רצוים<br /><br />I think the only way we'll know if this is a thinly veiled attempt at censoring views that don't exactly mesh with yours is to see if you allow this discussion to continue in other threads.Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69717213015769194012012-06-21T10:16:42.203+03:002012-06-21T10:16:42.203+03:00Well, of course it is not nice to taunt people, bu...Well, of course it is not nice to taunt people, but the approach "don't provoke" is not an adequate response for domestic violence, for the simple reason that a person who cannot manage their anger will always find a reason to feel provoked. when you tell the victim "don't provoke", you side with the one who cannot manage his anger,laying some blame on the victim and you further reduce the breathing space of the victim. That is wrong, from a moral perspective and from a practical perspective. <br /><br />The adequate response is, to the victim: "don't let yourself be intimidated, and if he threatens or hits call the police" and, to the one who cannot control himself: as soon as you feel anger mounting, leave the situation.lasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1318187625764544872012-06-21T04:07:12.990+03:002012-06-21T04:07:12.990+03:00I may not agree with everything Ploni and yy say, ...I may not agree with everything Ploni and yy say, but I respect their viewpoint, and I vote that the thread stay open.<br /><br />I would have preferred that you offer rebuttals to the issues they raise. Restricting them seems to give the appearance of censorship.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16785874082433028354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67131712808174549352012-06-21T04:04:53.756+03:002012-06-21T04:04:53.756+03:00I may not agree with everything Ploni and yy say, ...I may not agree with everything Ploni and yy say, but I'd hardly say their comments are off-topic. They're entitled to their viewpoint.<br /><br />I would have preferred that you offer answers to the issues they raise, instead of censoring them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16785874082433028354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21691632147495653162012-06-21T00:31:49.255+03:002012-06-21T00:31:49.255+03:00Ploni - you still are way off topic. You are raisi...Ploni - you still are way off topic. You are raising issues and situations which are not the top priority or even on the radar screen -in making progress in the protecting children from abuse. You are not only raising them but you have been writing reams of comments - which have nothing at all to do the post.<br /><br />From the comments of those responding - they indicate that my readers really aren't sure what your point is. According to your responses they are misunderstanding your words which requires more reams of comments to the clarify the issue - but you still not succeeding. The only exception being yy - who has a similar problem.<br /><br />So I am serving both of you notice that I will be restricting your attempts to hijack a thread. <br /><br />While I try hard to let a variety of viewpoints be presented - it is also important to me to maintain some semblance of orderDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19362772033035459002012-06-20T23:42:43.080+03:002012-06-20T23:42:43.080+03:00I'd like to add additional pointers concerning...I'd like to add additional pointers concerning VERBAL ABUSE, and using "feeling" as the basis for judging such abuse, as opposed to careful analysis of the "hard" fact.<br /><br />1) Torah law DOES consider emotional abuse to be an extremely serious transgression - as in המבזה את חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעוה"ב. In fact, while such transgression are usually not cause for monetary damages, the Shulchan Aruch in C"M ס' ת"כ סל"ח mentions that יש לבית דין בכל מקום ובכל זמן לגדור כפי מה שיראו, or מנדין אותו, or as the Rema states מכין אותו מכות מרדות. However, as mentioned in C"M סימן א' our current Bais Dins aren't vested with this ability. Still - the seriousness of the transgression is not diminished.<br /><br />2) However, as Rav Elchonon Wasserman states in קובץ הערות ס' ע', what many would consider verbal abuse is מותר לתועלת, just as the איסור of speaking Loshon Hora is מותר לתועלת. This is brought by contemporary Poskim, such as Rav Nissin Karelitz in his Sefer חוט השני.<br /><br />3) The Achronim compare the היתר of אונאה לתועלת to the היתר לשון הרע לתועלת with all its details, and therefore require that it be done only when the תועלת cannot be obtained otherwise. <br /><br />4) Based on the above, I believe that psychologists who disallow אונאה in ANY CASE and force their view on parents are seriously wrong. If they belittle a parent for doing the aforementioned, THEY are guilty of אונאת דברים. If they use their misguided view as the basis to allow calling Police, they are parties to the איסור חמור של מסירה.<br /><br />5) The question arises - Who and how does one judge the criteria of "can the תועלת be obtained otherwise". The Rema in ס' תכב says that the father has a כח בית דין. This is brought by contemporary Poskim, such asמנחת יצחק ח"ג סוסימן ק"ה . It would stand to reason that this כח only applies in grey areas, not where he is obviously abusive. "Ehrliche Rabonim" wouldn't hand this judgment over to secular authorities, or to those whose judgment in these matters is influenced by current, secular trends.<br /><br />6) I repeat: We aren't giving a license for nastiness. Only לתועלת and only were other means have been exhausted. And hey, is the business world ever this careful?Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85417386381374766122012-06-20T21:50:56.184+03:002012-06-20T21:50:56.184+03:00"Arguing that being a victim of crime brings ..."Arguing that being a victim of crime brings an opportunity for spiritual growth, and hence the perpetartor does not need to be persecuted is the contrary of justice."<br /><br />In a nutshell:<br />"being a victim of crime brings an opportunity for spiritual growth". YES - IT DOES.<br />"the perpetartor does not need to be persecuted" FALSE -HE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED.<br /><br />Simple.Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-81233748474292546482012-06-20T21:47:30.585+03:002012-06-20T21:47:30.585+03:00Yes I did. I'm debating whether I want DT to k...Yes I did. I'm debating whether I want DT to know who I am.... LOLPloninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61974603204621635342012-06-20T21:46:39.737+03:002012-06-20T21:46:39.737+03:00Las - Of course what i said is true. "Growing...Las - Of course what i said is true. "Growing from adversity" is the basis of the successful multi-billion dollar self-improvement movement.<br /><br />It also happens to be a Torah obligation, as in <br />"חייב אדם לברך על הרע כשם שמברך על הטובה - אוח ס' רכ"ב"/<br /><br />I think that youre assuming that I'm using that argument as an excuse not to punish abusers. I'm not.<br /><br />I'll say it again: CRIMINALS NEED TO BE PUNISHED, REGARDLESS OF THE FALLOUT.<br /><br />And equating any accusers "FEELING" of being abused with real abuse is ignoring the millions of daily occurrences of people hurting other peoples feelings, which are usually magnified millionfold in cases of domestic strife. <br /><br />The criminal should be punished - and the victim should be given the tools to grow from his experiences. <br /><br />The connection between learning to deal with adversity and not punishing criminals is a Non Sequitur.Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37988722126370049862012-06-20T20:14:04.084+03:002012-06-20T20:14:04.084+03:00Ploni, don't let the paranoia bug enter the fr...Ploni, don't let the paranoia bug enter the fray! Just hang in there with your willingness to swim against the currents of half-baked Torah justice... <br /><br />Did you see my note above abt asking DT for my email?yyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148467161702064439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17005222288617580732012-06-20T19:47:40.087+03:002012-06-20T19:47:40.087+03:00"they see life's obstacles as impenetrabl..."they see life's obstacles as impenetrable barriers and shy away from difficult challenges. This not only inhibits them from spiritual growth" <br /><br />If what you say was the derech of the torah, the torah would be a system without justice.<br /><br />However, having a justice system is even a Mitzwah beney noach. The torah says "tzedek, tzedek tirdof"<br /><br />Arguing that being a victim of crime brings an opportunity for spiritual growth, and hence the perpetartor does not need to be persecuted is the contrary of justice.Lasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64525998186396073222012-06-20T19:42:26.446+03:002012-06-20T19:42:26.446+03:00"Those that are taught to constantly blame ou..."Those that are taught to constantly blame outside factors for their own misery very often don't learn how to deal with life's inevitable ups and downs."<br /><br />What a callous statement, when applied to victims of crime.<br /><br />Being a victim of child sexual abuse is not part of "life's inevitable ups and downs". If you want to learn more about long term consequences of abuse, you might want to read up.Lasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23583938742972046982012-06-20T19:34:42.073+03:002012-06-20T19:34:42.073+03:00avf wrote:
"Your logic and points concerning ...avf wrote:<br />"Your logic and points concerning borderline cases as a general defence against reporting abuse , are actually wild , half baked , ridiculous and disingenuous"<br /><br />Allow me to make a partially tongue-in-cheek comment:<br /><br />YOU have just committed verbal abuse.<br /><br />as per wiki: "Verbal abuse may include aggressive actions such as name-calling, blaming, ridicule, disrespect, and criticism, but there are also less obviously aggressive forms of verbal abuse. Statements that may seem benign on the surface can be thinly veiled attempts to humiliate; falsely accuse; or manipulate others to submit to undesirable behavior, make others feel unwanted and unloved, threaten others economically, or isolate victims from support systems". <br /><br />Luckily this is your first time. But do this several times and we have a "pattern". Ah! I see dollar signs! Please hand over your bank account numbers - It's a pity we arent married, I could have sued for half of the house...<br /><br />Name calling is wrong (excuse me for saying so -but that includes what you just did. But criminalizing lapses in Midos isnt protective, least of all because the judgers arent usually any better than the judged!Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51452461757908247152012-06-20T18:53:27.336+03:002012-06-20T18:53:27.336+03:00avf: Do we have a bit of a comprehension issue her...avf: Do we have a bit of a comprehension issue here?<br /><br />I've stated over and over that "real" abuse needs to be reported, as per the Psak of Gedolei Haposkim.<br /><br />And as to your assertion that borderline cases are extremely rare, you're in for a shock. In the context of serious familial discord abuse allegations are common. When thoroughly researched my gumption is that most will fall into the category of "borderline", with a large dose of what yy called "bugaboos" rendering them factual in the eyes of the accuser - and also in the eyes of those that hear the accusers narrative.<br /><br />In the most "heimische" neighborhoods well-meaning "advocates" counsel gullible wives to ask for order of protections (this is stated in a Kil Koreh signed by approx. 70 Rabbonim concerning this issue). <br /><br />The OOP serves as a "paper trail" and is a prelude to a filing for divorce on the grounds of "cruelty". This is the easiest way out of a divorce when only one spouse wants to leave the marriage.<br /><br />Divorce is a prelude to court ordered alimony and child support.<br /><br /><br />Here's what wiki has to say on the matter:<br /><br />"Misuse of restraining orders is claimed to be widespread. Elaine Epstein, former president of the Massachusetts Bar Association, has remarked, “Everyone knows that restraining orders and orders to vacate are granted to virtually all who apply…In many cases, allegations of abuse are now used for tactical advantage.”<br /><br />A 1995 study conducted by the Massachusetts Trial Court that reviewed domestic restraining orders issued in the state found that less than half of the orders involved even an allegation of violence. Similarly a West Virginia study found eight out of 10 orders were unnecessary or false.[4]Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42283416414533921522012-06-20T18:06:28.604+03:002012-06-20T18:06:28.604+03:00Sorry you had such a mistaken impression. I DO co...Sorry you had such a mistaken impression. I DO condemn spousal rape!!!! And I most definitely would drop the "well" from your next statement with which you want to associate me. Don't provoke IS an important ethic to learn in close relationships. In fact Chazal warn us exactly about that in regards to setting off t. chachamim (p. avos). We're talking there about not provoking those who are presumed to be TSADDIKIM!<br /><br />But again, this does not justify violence; only puts it into context. There are many ways to skin a cat. Public humiliation, for one, according to Chazal, is akin to murder. So what if a man publically humiliates his wife -- wouldn't her slapping him be an understandable (tho less than ideal) reaction? The reverse should also be considered.yyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148467161702064439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13477021375854727232012-06-20T17:24:58.406+03:002012-06-20T17:24:58.406+03:00My last comments in response to yy haven't app...My last comments in response to yy haven't appeared. Is anything sinister going on here?Ploninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77952003096136431452012-06-20T14:02:45.084+03:002012-06-20T14:02:45.084+03:00Ploni and yy . Your logic and points concerning bo...Ploni and yy . Your logic and points concerning borderline cases as a general defence against reporting abuse , are actually wild , half baked , ridiculous and disingenuous. <br /><br />First of all these borderline cases are the extreme minority of cases that are reported to rabbonim , if they ever are. These cases even by non religious are usuoally not reported and definitely not by religious yidden to their rabbonim who have a society based in " spare the rod , spoil ect." .<br /> In addition the mere fact that they are borderline means that they are up to interpretation and are defensible if one did not report it.<br /> On the other hand real cases of abuse are more extreme and are done over and over again until the police get involved , these cases are unarguable that they constitute a case of pikuach nefesh to the victim and must be reported to the police.avfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9037097522947524102012-06-20T13:36:18.330+03:002012-06-20T13:36:18.330+03:00Well, of course one must be carefull so that unfou...Well, of course one must be carefull so that unfounded abuse accusations do not become the new whitchhunts, that is clear.<br /><br />Police & courts do their due diligence, and it is quite difficult to get a predator judged and punished. More than 50% of cases are thrown out for lack of proof. <br /><br />Of those that are convicted, the punishements often are horribly low (10 years for regularly raping the own daughter from age 2 on, selling her to other men for sex, wounding her with a knife and leaving her to die; less than 5 years for 1000 rapes against daughter committed over a time-span of 10 years).<br /><br />Unfounded sex abuse allegations in cases of divorce are quite rare. They exist, but they are rare.<br /><br />Since a mother will most likely seek divorce once she discovers her spouse molests her children, you cannot just say that if the accusations are brought up at divorce, this is a sure sign they are unfounded.<br /><br />I am quite appalled that you don't condemn spousal rape.<br /><br />I am quite appalled that you buy into the "well don't provoke him" logic in case of domestic violence. The right approach is for the one who feels provoked to go out of the situation, leave the room, the place, until the anger is calmed.Lasnoreply@blogger.com