tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post4568517078231094310..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Chol haMoed: Rav Meir Triebitz will discuss Empathy & YiddishkeitDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31454048050626669302013-07-16T16:51:19.163+03:002013-07-16T16:51:19.163+03:00I hope empathy is enough of an ahavas Yisrael topi...I hope empathy is enough of an ahavas Yisrael topic to permit my sharing this on 9 beAv...<br /><br />Shemos 22:24:<br />אם כסף תלוה את עמי את העני עמך לא תהיה לו כנשה, לא תשימון עליו נשך.<br /><br />Rashi:<br />את העני עמך - הוי מסתכל בעצמך כאלו אתה עני<br /><br />Is this Rashi not spelling out an obligation to be generous and non-regretful in lending to others out of empathy?micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4702711065588547642013-03-29T07:40:54.587+03:002013-03-29T07:40:54.587+03:00I can't help but to suggest to ely to raise th...I can't help but to suggest to ely to raise the topic of the age of the universe (an evolution related matter) w RMT. You may be surprised.hashkafa circle fanboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29727229432939357272013-03-24T22:06:13.415+02:002013-03-24T22:06:13.415+02:00This guy had been learning in a mussar yeshiva for...This guy had been learning in a mussar yeshiva for several years before getting married, and he STILL gives such a bad answer? Either he simply failed to learn what his rabbanim were teaching or he was just nervous. Either way, the story kind of looses its punch.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54331886581586599762013-03-24T14:31:19.498+02:002013-03-24T14:31:19.498+02:00So your problem isn't with what we would assum...So your problem isn't with what we would assume is the Alter's message in that story, but with our assuming the avreikh really did it only for the mitzvah???<br /><br />I think the Alter would have said that the fact that this is what he blurted out itself shows where, deep down, his priorities laid.<br /><br />Recall, this is an answer to the mashgiach ruchani in a mussar yeshiva. It's not even the answer you would give if your first instinct was to try to impress the rav.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85485930017828985412013-03-24T14:19:57.129+02:002013-03-24T14:19:57.129+02:00Rav Micha
i saw your post and i hear what you are...Rav Micha<br /><br />i saw your post and i hear what you are saying, that the guy didn't need to, or rather shouldn't have, quoted any book to justify his (correct) actions. still, i can easily imagine a 19 year guy being asked a question by his rav about his actions and saying the wrong thing. Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8094761270446172582013-03-24T14:00:54.623+02:002013-03-24T14:00:54.623+02:00Ben,
Your take is implausible given the Alter'...Ben,<br /><br />Your take is implausible given the Alter's life-message and what Slabadka Mussar was. See the Alter's take on "Ve'ahavata lerei'akha kamokha" that I posted on "March 21, 2013 at 3:45 AM". This is the same message.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20376528497850170782013-03-24T05:00:46.871+02:002013-03-24T05:00:46.871+02:00the story of the alter doesn't prove much of a...the story of the alter doesn't prove much of anything. at the end of the day, the man was helping his wife without being told to do so by his rav. that he felt nervous about his performance as a husband and prattled on when a simple yes would have been sufficient was probably more of a function of his age and being newly married, and not anything related to his generation.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91038355348033810892013-03-24T01:50:01.612+02:002013-03-24T01:50:01.612+02:00There are a few important points here, and I am ge...There are a few important points here, and I am generally in agreement with you. I find the cards to be "funny", and/because I don't think they were used in previous generations. It is like a futuristic joke, that when the Moshiach comes, and he is dressed in white robes, the Hareidim won't accept him, because he isn't wearing a shtreimel. i.e. the hukkat hagoy of the Cossacks has nothing to to with observing Torah.<br /><br />Now, linking this to the concept of empathy -and our mainstream discussion, yes, learning things by rote is not going to give us empathy. And "not" beating one's wife because we read in the Shulchan Aruch not to cause her tears is evidence that the man in question is very much a neanderthal. You don't need to learn from the Shulchan Aruch that such violence is immoral.<br /><br /><br />But, there is still a problem when it comes to empathy. And there are other problems if we are looking at certain halachot, especially Issurei Biah 1:13<br /><br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-5054463392766188212013-03-24T01:42:25.767+02:002013-03-24T01:42:25.767+02:00"When you find reams of rules and conditions ..."When you find reams of rules and conditions it is a clear sign that no one's judgment, intution or empathy is not trusted."<br />This thought brings to mind the laconic chassidic observation which goes back to the earlier generations of chassidim, contrasting the hassidic approach and emphasis to that of their objectors, the misnagdim. <br />"The misnaged fears the Shulchan Aruch wheras the chassid fears the Ribbono Shel Olam."<br />Is our emphasis on the details or on the context and the big picture?<br />One might emphasize the fine details and possibly lose track of the context and the big picture.<br />Another might emphasize the context and the big picture, possibly at the expense of inadvertantly missing some details.<br />The call and plea for remembering the context and big picture, of not getting caught up in the fine details (which will frequently lead to trampling other major principles and details) was repeatedly emphasized by both the Baal Shem Tov and his disciples along with R' Yisroel Salanter and his disciples.dbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-34969805036647832502013-03-24T01:16:28.151+02:002013-03-24T01:16:28.151+02:00If you find it funny that bnei Yisrael used plasti...If you find it funny that bnei Yisrael used plastic measuring cards why isn't it funny if your neighbors uses them?<br /><br />that was my point - when you see detailed descriptions of what is acceptable when previously there was only general principles - that indicates a major shift in a person's relationship to reality. he is no longer relying on his internal understanding and seichel or feelings but he is now being directed by an external standard or guide.<br /><br /> When he uses a clock to know when the sun rises or sets - instead of simply looking at the sky - something has drastically changed.<br /><br />Similarly I noted that a list can be provided to describe how to be kind to the poor or the widow etc. That list isn't proof that we have empathy but merely that we are going through specified acts that have been defined as kindness.<br /><br />If we avoid lashon harah by mastering the Chofetz Chaim's detailed description - it is not the same as avoiding it by following the basic principles which are described by the Rambam or Chazon Ish.<br /><br />If we avoid making our wives cry in order to not suffer G-d<br />s wrath - then that is not empathy but just following the halacha.<br /><br />there is the story of the Alter of Slobodka who asked a recently married student if he helped his wife erev Shabbos. the student replied with some indignation that of course he helped - after it is describes in the second perek of kiddushin how some of Chazal were involved in Shabbos preparations.<br /><br />The Alter replied, "I wasn't asking to find out whether you were familiar with that gemora. I was asking you whether you helped your wife because she is likely to be tired erev Shabbos and in need of help."<br /><br /><br /><br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51714633481574970152013-03-23T23:02:28.191+02:002013-03-23T23:02:28.191+02:00DT wrote "One of my rebbeim mentioned in the ...DT wrote "One of my rebbeim mentioned in the 1970's when measurement cards came out for the Seder. He assured me that in Europe no one would have used them. A person ate what a normal person ate- without a measuring cup or tape measure."<br /><br />perhaps this was written with a straight face or keyboard, but I thought it was very funny. Can you imagine Bnei Yisrael leaving Egypt with a measuring card, sealed in clear plastic, to show them what size their matzos should be? :)Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25944442554155713502013-03-23T22:58:21.132+02:002013-03-23T22:58:21.132+02:00Eddie I missed the joke. What was quite funny?Eddie I missed the joke. What was quite funny?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65853052238004655042013-03-23T21:46:16.864+02:002013-03-23T21:46:16.864+02:00Sorry Micha, I was making a joke, and not aimed yo...Sorry Micha, I was making a joke, and not aimed you. I wanted to thank you for clarifying my position and yours with DT on this issues. But in the ensuing discussion, I found DT's comments on the measurement cards to be quite funny, hence my other comment.<br />But regarding the empathy issues, I think we are on the same page. Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12031427589200150322013-03-22T17:22:20.344+02:002013-03-22T17:22:20.344+02:00Eddie, I assume you mean for matzah and maror at t...Eddie, I assume you mean for matzah and maror at the seder, but I fail to see the connection.<br /><br />It's one thing to lament the loss of the basic yashrus that caused the popularization and need for a guide like the CC. It's another to ignore that it actually happened.<br /><br />When it comes to having a feel for what the seder is about, so that we now need rule books... Does anyone actually question the real loss we've had in emunah peshutah compared to where we were before the combined cultural shocks of the Haskalah and WWII?micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74596787905789308562013-03-22T17:10:11.734+02:002013-03-22T17:10:11.734+02:00Thank you MIcha, I can now discard my measurement ...Thank you MIcha, I can now discard my measurement cards!Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-773581930909808202013-03-22T16:56:39.399+02:002013-03-22T16:56:39.399+02:00o.k. I see the issue as well as acknowledging some...o.k. I see the issue as well as acknowledging some of your other feedback you provided. Will try put it together in a clear more cogent package after Pesach.<br /><br />Your comments have been very helpfulDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14753569658531986702013-03-22T16:37:12.389+02:002013-03-22T16:37:12.389+02:00I will quote what you wrote again, because I think...I will quote what you wrote again, because I think your point about halakhah is obfuscated by a technical definition of "empathy" that Eddie and I aren't getting.<br /><br />Now you say something that looks like another contradiction.<br /><br />You wrote: Thus in the absence of empathy or yashrus ... it is necessary to have laundry lists.<br />Now you explain: The issue which you find confusing is my point about halacha. I wasn't saying that there was empathy. I was using that as an example of how a detailed check list is an alternative to the use of intuition (which is not empathy) or yashrus (which might in some cases be the result of empathy). <br /><br />But the word you chose, perhaps in error, WAS "empathy".<br />I have no idea of what intuition about what would bother someone else and how badly it makes him feel (or not) is if not empathy.<br /><br />Eddie wrote: b) there is no difference between "if you were in his situation what would you want done for you" and empathy.<br /><br />I would had said "if you were in his situation and had his desires and proclivities, what would you want..." Spelling out the fact that "his situation" includes things about his personality and tastes. And that seems to me to be the very "intuition" you're discussing, that you yourself earlier called "empathy". I think.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69154978699116137462013-03-22T16:27:27.873+02:002013-03-22T16:27:27.873+02:00Then I apologize. So far I have spent much time wi...Then I apologize. So far I have spent much time with my chavrusa Dr. Shulem and with Rav Triebetz - and they have no trouble understanding what I am saying. Perhaps after the Chol HaMoed gathering the issues will be more developed. I'll try writing it up and will see if it makes more sense.<br /><br />The issue which you find confusing is my point about halacha. I wasn't saying that there was empathy. I was using that as an example of how a detailed check list is an alternative to the use of intuition (which is not empathy) or yashrus (which might in some cases be the result of empathy). Therefore the fact that someone has a list of what a rich person is accustomed to before he became poor - is not empathy - it is a list. It is simply whether a person relies on his understanding of foundation concepts or whether everything needs to be spelled out and that which isn't spelled out can not be done.<br /><br />One of my rebbeim mentioned in the 1970's when measurement cards came out for the Seder. He assured me that in Europe no one would have used them. A person ate what a normal person ate- without a measuring cup or tape measure. Because of spelling out all aspects of halacha people don't feel comfortable with that system. If you want to know when shkiah is you look at a clock not at the sun. <br /><br />Anyway I see what the issue is and I will try and be more coherent and clear. My original thesis of empathy still stands. the issue of yashus and a detailed halachic framework is really secondary but I think also valid.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47528693910172485282013-03-22T15:57:42.176+02:002013-03-22T15:57:42.176+02:00RDE: It's not Eddie bothering to read that'...RDE: It's not Eddie bothering to read that's the problem. I too can't follow your position. You started out arguing that Chazal didn't value empathy, only sympathy. You end up with a statement that seifer Chafetz Chaim takes the historical emphasis on empathy and yashrus off the topic of shemiras halashon. I am left entirely confused about what you mean, since all I see is self-contradiction.<br /><br />And I know you better than to think I properly understood you contradicting yourself. So I must have misunderstood something.<br /><br />I actually could have written exactly what Eddie did, if I weren't convinced that I didn't understand that which I'm trying to reply to.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18587897008601858382013-03-22T15:42:06.973+02:002013-03-22T15:42:06.973+02:00Eddie I am also going to be "quite blunt&quo...Eddie I am also going to be "quite blunt". I simply don't understand what relevance the words you wrote above has - they have nothing to do with the discussion up until now. In addition it shows you haven't bothered reading what I have written. Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86569761550152861032013-03-22T14:49:45.680+02:002013-03-22T14:49:45.680+02:00Dear DT, I wish to be quite blunt with a number of...Dear DT, I wish to be quite blunt with a number of points here.<br /><br />a) You have to have empathy in order to feel for someone else's suffering. It is precisely when psychopaths have no empathy that they are able to inflict torture and murder on others.<br /><br />b) there is no difference between "if you were in his situation what would you want done for you" and empathy. You are suggesting that empathy can only be achieved if you hook yourself up to a machin whcih will replicate the exact pain that someone else is feeling. This is clearly ridiculous.<br /><br />c) the Torah forbids incest. Since many cases of sexual abuse are actually incestuous,a re you suggesting that halacha does not forbid this as Incest if the children are "underage"? (or homosexuality for that matter).<br /><br />d) At which stage in Jewish history was suffering not an issue? In the books of the Neviim it was a big issue.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26101846100265761022013-03-22T10:15:34.284+02:002013-03-22T10:15:34.284+02:00More, with fuller "empathize" context, f...More, with fuller "empathize" context, from the NY Times article:<br /><br />Standing before a blue-and-white banner emblazoned with the emblem of the Israeli state — a menorah flanked by olive branches — Mr. Obama spoke of the past and the future, from the biblical story of Exodus and from Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, to Israel’s reputation as a high-tech incubator with a mania for social media. <br /><br />“Israel,” he said to prolonged applause, “is rooted not just in history and tradition, but also in a simple and profound idea: the idea that people deserve to be free in a land of their own.”...<br /><br />Echoing a theme he first articulated in his speech to the Muslim world in 2009, Mr. Obama said the Israeli occupation of the West Bank imposed a shameful human cost. <br /><br />“Put yourself in their shoes — look at the world through their eyes,” he said. “It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of her own, and lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements of her parents, every single day.” <br /><br />“Neither occupation nor expulsion is the answer,” Mr. Obama said. “Just as Israelis built a state in their homeland, Palestinians have a right to be a free people in their own land.” <br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/middleeast/gaza-militants-fire-rockets-as-obama-visits.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130322&pagewanted=all <br />______________________<br /><br />Meanwhile, the same article reports:<br /><br />The president’s new activism, on the second day of a four-day trip to the Middle East, came hours after rockets from the Palestinian enclave of Gaza hit southern Israel. He condemned the attacks, which broke a three-month cease-fire, but said that the Israelis should not use the violence as an excuse to avoid negotiations... <br /><br />The rocket attacks, which hit the border town of Sderot, caused no injuries...Yisroel Pensackhttp://www.arwep.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9254909225528176332013-03-22T09:58:51.205+02:002013-03-22T09:58:51.205+02:00It could be that this is empathy - but it is not n...It could be that this is empathy - but it is not necessarily any different than the Chovas Halevavos which says we do chesed to others to stop the pain we feels when we see others suffering. That is more of chesed or rachamin - you see a person being afflicted and it bothers you. Empathy would be the put yourself in the person's shoes and feel what he feels - with the emphasis on the other rather than yourself.<br /><br />It is also no different than all the commentaries of "loving your fellow" where the focus is "if you were in his situation what would you want done for you" - instead of saying that you need to try and understand HIS PAIN. This is gemilas chesed not empathy.<br /><br />In addition even if it is empathy - it was not a typical reaction according to the commentaries.<br /><br />Again I am trying to understand the mindset i.e., empathize with the commentators and poskim who saw child physical and sexual abuse - and yet make absolutely no reference to it. <br /><br />It keeps coming back to the suffering is basically irrelevant to the discussion since it is not a halachic issues and it represented a transient discomfort. It was not viewed as pikuach nefesh or induce a chronic disability. Was that because they were ignorant of PTSD or was it because they were tougher in the old days and were not so readily traumatized? If they were tougher was it because of being used to suffering or was it because they didn't obsess about it and tie it to their identify and self-image.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30741371794424634132013-03-22T09:28:59.274+02:002013-03-22T09:28:59.274+02:00Maybe President Obama has been reading this blog: ...Maybe President Obama has been reading this blog: <br /><br />Obama Urges Young Israelis to Lead the Push for Peace<br /><br />By MARK LANDLER<br />Published: March 21, 2013 <br /><br />JERUSALEM — President Obama, appealing to very disparate audiences to solve one of the world’s thorniest problems, moved closer on Thursday to the Israeli government’s position on resuming long-stalled peace talks with the Palestinians, even as he passionately implored young Israelis to get ahead of their own leaders in the push for peace. <br /><br />Addressing an enthusiastic crowd of more than 2,000, Mr. Obama offered a fervent, unsparing case for why a peace agreement was both morally just and in Israel’s self-interest. Younger Israelis, Mr. Obama said, should empathize with their Palestinian neighbors living under occupation — or, as he put it, “look at the world through their eyes.” <br />http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/middleeast/gaza-militants-fire-rockets-as-obama-visits.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130322&_r=0Yisroel Pensackhttp://www.arwep.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15901817890669298362013-03-21T17:58:39.282+02:002013-03-21T17:58:39.282+02:00While I agree with much of what you say - you are ...While I agree with much of what you say - you are missing my basic point. The Chofetz Chaim didn't write a book on lashon harah because the intuitive empathetic understanding was fading. He took an approach which doesn't value the intuitive, empathetic approach and replaced with the pure halachic approach. The significance of what he did is that it became widely accepted. in many other areas seichel and yashrus have been deemed irrelevant.<br /><br />However in the area of child and sexual abuse - there never was a time when it was clear that the victims were suffering. In my search for an explanation for this I suggested that people today are more vulnerable because of the focus on the psychological.<br /><br />In contrast I don't think that people were more or less likely to speak lashon harah. But there was a shift from the Rambam's approach, the Maharal and Rav Chaim Ozer's approach and the Chazon Ish etc etc - to a very detailed halachic basis system which left no room for the use of yashrus or empathy in guiding ones actions.<br /><br />In essence I am positing that aside from the issue of trauma there are two approaches - the dialetic between yashrus, empathy and seichel with halachic principles verus the pure halachic approach where you only do that which is in a book or you receive a psak that it is permitted.<br /><br />I think the Mussar approach was to develop the ethicial, yashrus in conjuction with halacha while the alternative as exemplified by the Chofetz Chaim seemed to be an empahsis on pure halacha. Similarly I think that Rav Y. B. Soloveitchik was wrestling with this issue regarding the supremacy of halachic man versus religious or ethical man - and the matter was unresolved for him.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.com