tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post4562883141831252943..comments2024-03-19T00:38:47.904+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rav Shach & Prof. Marc ShapiroDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61968246826821451472015-04-29T22:51:14.709+03:002015-04-29T22:51:14.709+03:00What you said previously was that they did it for ...What you said previously was that they did it for ulterior motives: so that they would not be "forced out of the picture." Now you are suggesting (a) that they actually believed what they signed, because they held that his daas overrode theirs -- that is, they accepted his superior understanding, and (b) that they did not accept it, but they wished to avoid dissent in the chareidi ranks. You have no proof for either of your contentions (people like you rarely do), but in any case, in both you back away from your previous claim that they acted out of self-interest.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88825138919200232722015-04-24T16:56:28.723+03:002015-04-24T16:56:28.723+03:00As I have stated elsewhere, the desire to remain a...As I have stated elsewhere, the desire to remain accepted within the chareidi community is one possible cause for them to sign. The other is that they decided to be mevatel da'as to him, either because they in fact held that he was so much greater than they were that his opinion overrides theirs, or because they felt it was not good for chareidi society as a whole for there to be differences of opinion. Either way, I stand by my main point, which is that once Rav Shach arrived at the decision to ban Steinsaltz, it was inevitable that the others would follow along. Their signatures should be seen in the manner of יהודה ועוד לקרא, as the Gemara puts it.Yehoshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15356603370034099372015-04-24T16:05:18.687+03:002015-04-24T16:05:18.687+03:00Are you backing down from your statement that they...Are you backing down from your statement that they signed only so that they wouldn't be forced "out of the picture?"kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9249692267134668442015-04-24T14:26:49.560+03:002015-04-24T14:26:49.560+03:00Thank you.Thank you.Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52257329280018184582015-04-24T12:48:50.656+03:002015-04-24T12:48:50.656+03:00Rav Hutner's statement is printed in the Pacha...Rav Hutner's statement is printed in the Pachad Yitzchak on Chanuka, Ma'amar 9.Yehoshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47057839840453367832015-04-24T12:40:59.077+03:002015-04-24T12:40:59.077+03:00http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/VDarashta-VChaka...http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/VDarashta-VChakarta-A-Bracha-Upon-Seeing-A-Brilliant-Am-HaAretz/2400<br /><br />V'Darashta V'Chakarta: A Bracha Upon Seeing A Brilliant... Am Ha'Aretz<br /><br />The Shulchan Aruch (OC 224:6) paskens that when you see a "Chachmei Yisroel" you make a Bracha "SheChalak MiChochmosoi Lirei'av"; He gave a portion of His wisdom to those who fear him. When seeing a Chochom who is not Jewish you make the Bracha "SheNasan MiChochmosoi L'Basar V'Dam"; he gave from His wisdom to flesh and blood.<br /> <br />Rav Aharon Yehuda HaLevi Grossman was asked (V'Darashta V'Chakarta 3:27) what happens if you see a Jew who has reached the level of "Chochom" (this determination is not the scope of this article and is a disputable matter), but only in worldly matters and not in Torah, do you make the Bracha "SheNasan MiChochmosoi L'Basar V'Dam"? On one hand, he is walking model of Hashem's wisdom, which deserves a bracha to Hashem. On the other hand, maybe this bracha only applies to a non-Jew since the gemara specifically says if you see a wise man from the "Umos HaOlam".<br /> <br />Although he leaves this question unresolved, he writes that he heard (although he never saw this himself) that Rav Yitzchok Hutner wrote that if we were to see Albert Einstein, we would not make the bracha, since it is an embarrassment for a Jew to be wise in worldly matters but not in Torah knowledge.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16842948132988080882015-04-24T12:27:09.013+03:002015-04-24T12:27:09.013+03:00Again, it is not that they agreed or disagreed wit...Again, it is not that they agreed or disagreed with him. They recognized him as the gadol hador, and followed his lead on public policy matters. In the Litvish chareidi community in Israel, there has been no such thing as Rashei Yeshiva stating their own opinions on public policy. That is why there is such a train wreck now with R' Shmuel Auerbach, as the idea that someone within the system does need feel beholden to back the gadol hador undermines the way they have been running things for several decades.Yehoshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39489768304888776052015-04-24T12:18:14.581+03:002015-04-24T12:18:14.581+03:00I will follow your tangent here for a moment.
Yo...I will follow your tangent here for a moment. <br /><br />You can opt to take your cynical approach. I will proudly and resolutely take Chazal's approach. Allow me to remind you of <a href="http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%91_%D7%97" rel="nofollow">Rabbon Gamliel and Rebbi Yehoshua</a>. They disagreed. But Rabbon Gamliel's psak had to be followed to the tune of <a href="http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%A9_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%91_%D7%98" rel="nofollow">Rebbi Yehoshua violating his assumed Yom Kippur</a>. This all is in reference to when the Chachomim of the generation - no, not those Jews who are wise in the ways of the Nations - follow the the leadership and view of a Gadol Hador.<br /><br />This all is irrelevant to Dr. Shappiro's false claim and accusation. Rav Shach's leadership and opinions in these matters were agreed to by the other Chachomenu. <br /><br />___<br /><br />If you see a remarkable genius and wise man from the nations of the world, you make a bracha ברוך<strong>שנתן</strong>... <br />מחכמתו <strong>לבשר ודם</strong>. However, upon seeing a person who has reached true greatness in Torah I say ברוך <strong>שחלק</strong> מחכמתו <br /><strong> ליריאיו</strong>. What would be the halacha when you see a Jewish person who has not reached unquestionable true Torah greatness, but has reached great knowledge of the sciences and secular philosophy? Lets take Albert Einstein as an example. The halacha is that no bracha is made. Had a non-Jew reached his knowledge, a broacha would be made.Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64434575737386800902015-04-24T07:04:38.740+03:002015-04-24T07:04:38.740+03:00"You claim that the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedol..."You claim that the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolim are fickle and just follow whats popular. Or something like that." <br />Actually, not something like that. I claim that when there is one figure who is viewed by the general public/other Rashei Yeshiva as the gadal hador, the other Gedolim will not disagree with his stance on particular issues, but will follow what he says. To give a very obvious comparison, if the Gerrer Rebbe says something as a matter of public policy, no Gerrer dayan or Rosh Yeshiva will publicly disagree with him, and every single one would sign a kol koreh backing him up. If you want to take a nicer view, it is because they hold he is so holy/chashuv/whatever that they are mevatel their opinions to his, and if you want to think a bit more cynically, it is because they know they will have no place in the Gerrer community otherwise. I am saying that when Rav Shach was active, there was a similar dynamic in the Litvish community, and that a similar dynamic is in play in the current controversy affecting that community.Yehoshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54069190325416675632015-04-24T05:01:36.995+03:002015-04-24T05:01:36.995+03:00All others followed his lead or found themselves o...<i> All others followed his lead or found themselves out of the picture</i><br /><br />Oh, so you're saying that they didn't really believe what they were saying, they did it only for ulterior motives, b/c they were afraid of being forced "out of the picture." <br /><br />This list includes some of the greatest of their time -- it's unbelievable to me that your would so lightly denigrate them in this way.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46500712608446341092015-04-24T01:48:05.606+03:002015-04-24T01:48:05.606+03:00We'll be spinning our wheels again. Your point...We'll be spinning our wheels again. Your point is not Dr. Shapiro's claim.<br />1) Dr. Shappiro claimed it was on his own.<br />Fact: Many felt the same way.<br />You have your contention - which is completely separate and irrelevant to Dr. Shappiro's claim. You claim that the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolim are fickle and just follow whats popular. Or something like that. I disagree with you but, I do not want to pursue this with you. Thank you.Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70985660691291921802015-04-23T20:56:27.151+03:002015-04-23T20:56:27.151+03:00very well - so even more so / kal v'chomer - ...very well - so even more so / kal v'chomer - where is there a rule that says one must follow the majority in terms of hashkafah?Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15887140511070999672015-04-23T16:29:22.237+03:002015-04-23T16:29:22.237+03:00@Eddie we are not dealing with a psak of beis din@Eddie we are not dealing with a psak of beis dinDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59722730092729280512015-04-23T16:23:03.250+03:002015-04-23T16:23:03.250+03:00That is a good point. Those who accept the author...That is a good point. Those who accept the authority of a Rav follow his psak or Deot. According to the Ritva, there is no requirement to follow the majority, if they do not sit together in a Din.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58044266597969866322015-04-23T13:48:43.232+03:002015-04-23T13:48:43.232+03:00There is a difference between agreeing with Rav Sh...There is a difference between agreeing with Rav Shteinman and holding that he has the title/authority of the gadol hador and therefore everyone has to be mevatel da'as to him. I do not think that the majority agree with Rav Shteinman, or that they disagree with him. But once Rav Chaim Kanievsky says that anyone who contradicts him has the halacha of a zaken mamre, people fall into line pretty quickly. Otherwise, you get your Yeshiva shut down (see Chadera) or your job as a dayan pulled out from under you (see She'eiris).There was no such thing as agreeing or disagreeing with Rav Shach on a particular issue. They accepted his authority and followed what he said.Yehoshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9516326602383371522015-04-23T13:01:32.001+03:002015-04-23T13:01:32.001+03:00There are some alternative views on how this affai...There are some alternative views on how this affair became so explosive. One of my regular arguments has received a herem, so I will bring some others.<br /><br />First of all, R' Henkin ztl, who was the Gadol Hador prior to even R' Moshe Feinstein ztl opposed the vilification of R' Goren ztl. R Henkin was a major Torah authority.<br /><br />R' Aharon Rakkefet gives a shiur on the matter, where he says that the actions of r Goren were all in line with halacha, and mentions that he asked R' Lichtenstein why then was there such opposition to Goren? RAL replied that Goren was like a train without a driver, ie out of control, and that there needed to be a stop to his innovations in halacha and his break from the past.<br />There is a deeper background to this, and my argument is that a major change took place in Judaism in 1948 and again in 1967. R Goren was particularly instrumental in the changes of of both these dates, especially 1967. Until at least 1960, Goren was on good terms with the Hareidi leadership - R' Shach asked him to join him in starting a Kollel. By 1967, with the liberation of Jerusalem after 2000 or 2500 years. R Goren was working on renewing Judaism to its pre-exile form, and this meant changes in halacha. That seems tome to be the underlying cause of the fissure, rather than a specific psak, which was merely an opportunity to remove him from the constellation of mainstream yeshiva orthodoxy.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88433771674209618112015-04-23T11:35:24.316+03:002015-04-23T11:35:24.316+03:00If you are aware of how the chareidi society funct...If you are aware of how the chareidi society functioned in the 80's, you know that this is kind of irrelevant. Rav Shach set public policy, period. All others followed his lead or found themselves out of the picture. One of the Litvish Rashei Yeshiva disagreed with him about breaking off from Aguda and starting Degel, and quickly found himself off of the Moetzes (not too different than what is going on now with R' Shmuel Aurbach and his supporters). Therefore, the fact that other rabbonim followed his lead is not so meaningful.Yehoshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43042230571044667462015-04-23T03:14:22.094+03:002015-04-23T03:14:22.094+03:00Regarding goren, I guess marc Shapiro was unaware ...Regarding goren, I guess marc Shapiro was unaware that Rav Shach was joined <br /><br />Steipler<br />Rav Elyashiv<br />Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach<br />Rav Chaim Shmulevitz<br />Rav Yechezkel Abramsky<br />Gerrer Rebbe<br />Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro<br />Rav Y.M. Feinstein<br /><br />Rav Y.M. Feinstein<br /><br />http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12319&st=&pgnum=26<br /><br />http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33389&pgnum=8<br /><br />http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=28315&pgnum=36&hilite=Yoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2859921974608763472015-04-23T03:05:48.439+03:002015-04-23T03:05:48.439+03:00"He mocks the Lubavithcher
rebbe's Rambam..."He mocks the Lubavithcher<br />rebbe's Rambam learning program..."<br /><br />Rav Shach's criticism of Rambam Yomi is explained clearly here:<br /><br />http://classic.frumteens.com/topic.php?topic_id=20164&forum_id=38&topic_title=Note+for+Tzorich+Iyun&forum_title=Notes+from+Moderator!&M=0Yoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35474089848823006752015-04-23T03:02:29.041+03:002015-04-23T03:02:29.041+03:00"Especially since the other gedolim
seem to h..."Especially since the other gedolim<br />seem to have no great problem with Habad"<br /><br />Incorrect, check out these pamphlets:<br /><br />http://identifyingchabad.org/al-hatorah.pdf<br /><br />http://identifyingchabad.org/kuntress_haemes.pdfYoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43140808683803470852015-04-22T23:51:41.060+03:002015-04-22T23:51:41.060+03:00He also acknowledged that he erred in saying that ...<i>He also acknowledged that he erred in saying that Rav Shach said the Rebbe was a heretic. After careful research he could find not a single quote to that effect.</i><br /><br />Perhaps he should have done his research before he said it. It's a bit disingenuous in any case, b/c in the '93 email he states explicitly that everything he has written is contained in R' Shach's writings. Now he admits that he did not actually have sources for everything he wrote. One wonders what else he wrote without sourcing it.<br /><br />Also, the opening paragraph as it appears in the '93 email implies very strongly that he is stating his own view, which others also agree with. It does not imply that he is simply giving over what others think. In general, the piece is written emotionally, with strong feeling. Hard to believe he was acting only as a recorder for the thoughts of others.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62851976509245319362008-08-12T16:18:00.000+03:002008-08-12T16:18:00.000+03:00R'DE,Is the issue whether R'MS made some youthful ...R'DE,<BR/>Is the issue whether R'MS made some youthful intemperate remarks or whether a consideration of R' ES's comments over the years concerning others (including R"YBS) define a standard of respectful disagreement (or are you saying that according to R'ES, R'YBS was a heretic as well?)?<BR/>KT<BR/>Joel RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com