tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post4506732058221750472..comments2024-03-29T09:34:59.827+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Convert the wife to save the husband? IIDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49601840764260671442008-05-01T04:55:00.000+03:002008-05-01T04:55:00.000+03:00Jersey,You raise some interesting points. However,...Jersey,<BR/><BR/>You raise some interesting points. However, they are separate (important)points. But the general point that there is room (or obligation) to give person a lesser of the evils so that he will at least be connected with basic yiddishkeyt is given by Teshuvot HaRambam, which is quoted by Achiezer and others. <BR/><BR/>I agree though that there be clear guideliness by the people of the highest caliber and biggest of poskim of this generation where exactly to apply this method. I beleive though, that Rabbi Tropper is not the one who decides on the particular situations. The Batey dinim they established are the ones who have the job to make the decision if the particular situation merits or warrants this method.<BR/><BR/>Shalom UbrachaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3692071062129260792008-04-30T19:08:00.000+03:002008-04-30T19:08:00.000+03:00"thepower to override the various issurey derabban..."thepower to override the various issurey derabbanan....... (for rabbis to act in drawing those spouses who wish to return if there will be permission for their spouses to convert.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>And to WHO or to WHICH "Rabbis" should the power to override the various issurey derabbanan" be granted?<BR/><BR/>Should (for example)any or all of the following bear this grave burden?<BR/><BR/>1. A Lubavitch shaliach with a one year smicha whose Beit Din is comprised of himself and two members who are publicly Shomer Shabbos.<BR/><BR/>2. An out of town community Rabbi, a musmach of Hebrew Theological College whose Beis Din includes a retired shochet and an attorney who went to YU.<BR/><BR/>3.The self described "Orthodox" Rabbi of a Conservative shul and two members who are familiar with the "books".<BR/><BR/>4. The Dean of the University of Judaism who has a smicha from a Baal Teshuva Yeshiva in Israel whose Beis Din also includes a sofer and a community Rabbi who himself is a convert.<BR/><BR/>(names provided upon request).<BR/><BR/>Or should the power to override issurey D'Rabbonon be granted ONLY to the Gedolim of our times?<BR/><BR/>Funny how many Rabbis who would never consider overriding issur d'Rabbanon to eat a chicken cheese sandwich, a decision which impacts none but himself will do so to permanently alter the course of the Jewish people for all of eternity.<BR/><BR/>I will quote my mother (until 120) who told us as children "whenever you hear anyone mention the words "override the various issurey derabbanan" or its "only issur d'Rabbonim",<BR/><BR/>WATCH OUT!!<BR/> <BR/>The only differences between Judaism and the other religions (ie Christianity, Karaites, Islam) IS the Rabbinical Law. As soon as you start to dispense with one piece of it, you are on your way to another faith. " (as evidenced by Reform).<BR/><BR/>It is because of this that we are taught that in many situations Rabbinical Law should be guarded even more fiercely than the Written Law.<BR/><BR/>There is no question that it is within the power of an individual Posek or Beis Din to rule EXCEPTIONS (heter) to Rabbinical Law under normal circumstances (ie. can one carry a cell phone on Shabbat if he is a doctor on call).<BR/><BR/>But this is not the question. <BR/><BR/> The real question, I believe is "WHO is qualified as a Dayyan with regard to a far reaching question such as who is a Jew?" A question which will impact the Jewish people for generations? <BR/><BR/>It would seem to me that because the RCA which represents the majority of American Orthodox Rabbis has accepted the Chief Rabbinute's ruling in this regard, that it is nearly universal among Orthodox Rabbis that the answer would be "none of the above" and "the very few Rabbis who are Gedolim".<BR/><BR/>This is with all due respect to Rav Tropper who is a Talmid Chacham (who I have known for 21 years), but who is not widely regarded as a Gadol Hador qualified to permanently alter the course of the Jewish people for all of eternity. <BR/><BR/>Rabbi Dr. Emmet Allen Frank also was not regarded as a Gadol even among the Reform. It is tragic that it appears he has managed to impact the Jewish people in such a far and broad reaching manner. <BR/><BR/>Another saying comes to mind and that is "Water seeks its own level and will go uphill due to gravity". <BR/><BR/>There is nothing of more gravity with regard to the continuity of the Jewish people than the question of "who is a Jew".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50285179964217165652008-04-30T18:41:00.000+03:002008-04-30T18:41:00.000+03:00Anonymous wrote:This is in cotnradistinction with ...Anonymous wrote:<BR/>This is in cotnradistinction with many rabbis (even orthodox) who convert in cases of marriage where most of their cases does not demand that the convert (and the spouse) observe torah and mitzvot!<BR/>-------------------<BR/>I agree that your analysis of Rav Herzog might be correct - but it is not obvious that it is so. I appreicate your other comments. In response see todays' postings of two apparently contradictory teshuvos of Rav Moshe Feinsetin concerning the concept of acceptance of mitzvos.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55776404014440834612008-04-30T18:36:00.000+03:002008-04-30T18:36:00.000+03:00Is it ethical to sacrifice the soul of a gentile t...Is it ethical to sacrifice the soul of a gentile to possibly stop a Jew from continuing to sin? What is the justification for this? Emes v Emunah said..<BR/>Isn't it putting a stumbling block before the blind (gentile) to let her commit to a contract she cannot possibly keep?<BR/><BR/>----------------<BR/><BR/>Good question and bli neder I'll soon post translations of teshuvos which address the issue.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17837173858677645922008-04-30T05:20:00.000+03:002008-04-30T05:20:00.000+03:00Thanks to Daas Torah for providing an open forum t...Thanks to Daas Torah for providing an open forum to discuss these issues civilly!<BR/><BR/>Rav Hertzog does not contradict himself: His main point is that the conversion entail commitment to observe the mitzvot of the torah. <BR/><BR/>There are many halachik problems with a conversion involving marriage to a non jewish partner. However some of the problems are not deorayta problem; only issur derabbanan. Like "gerut leshem ishut"; "hanitan al hanochriss" are issurey derabbanan. Therefore one could use the rationale of Teshuvat HaRambam (as employed by Achiezer) that one can bend bedieved those prohibitions toprevent worse issurey deorayto. One of the examples in point, is the fear tthat the spouse might convert to chritianity bend. (OThers mention a fear that spouse will commit suicide or the like). <BR/><BR/>But the major stumbling block on the issue is a deoraytah problem. Actually it is the problem in the essenceof the conversion! LAck of kabbalat hamitzvot or a clear assumption that the "kabbalah" is a sham! Here there is no way to "bend" the laws. Therefore Rav Hertzog was extremely machmir on this regard. Likewise it is not contradictory for Rav Hertzog to give discretion to the Rav to decide whether the convert is sincere or not: since the major stumbling block is the sincerity of the commitment therefore in gray areas it is in the discretion of the rabbi to decide that the person is sincere (unless it is clear that that there is no sincerity). <BR/><BR/>Rabbi Tropper's position may perhaps not be contradicted by this TEshuva of Rav HErtzog as perhaps although it does not give proof to his position nevertheless one might argue that the importance of having the spouses observe torah and mitzvot give thepower to override the various issurey derabbanan and the right for rabbis to act in drawing those spouses who wish to return if there will be permission for their spouses to convert. Obviously provided if the converts will accept and live a life according to torah and mitzvot.<BR/><BR/>This is in cotnradistinction with many rabbis (even orthodox) who convert in cases of marriage where most of their cases does not demand that the convert (and the spouse) observe torah and mitzvot!<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for allwoing open discussion on the matter and for the translation of these fascinating teshuvot!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67657212219056291232008-04-30T05:14:00.000+03:002008-04-30T05:14:00.000+03:00"It is interesting to note I still haven't found a..."It is interesting to note I still haven't found any precedent for R' Tropper's proselytization of intermarried couples nor for the claim that this is a legitimate techique in kiruv."<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Dr. Emmett Allen Frank 1925-1987, I believe was the precedent who permanently changed the course of American Judaism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90821261024092784152008-04-30T03:16:00.000+03:002008-04-30T03:16:00.000+03:00Anonymous wrote:Intermarriage is NOT OK. Period.Th...Anonymous wrote:<BR/><BR/>Intermarriage is NOT OK. Period.<BR/><BR/>The halachic arguments posted here appear to imply all I have to do to get my gentile woman converted is to FIRST marry her! and THEN go to the Rabbi! I know plenty of people who did exactly that.<BR/>-------------<BR/>Actually the Chedvas Yaakov actually suggested this as a possible solution - but then withdrew it.<BR/><BR/>While I agree with your view, I am presenting what major talmidei chachomim have actually done in different circumstances. It is interesting to note I still haven't found any precedent for R' Tropper's proselytization of intermarried couples nor for the claim that this is a legitimate techique in kiruv.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3498445361696423222008-04-30T03:05:00.000+03:002008-04-30T03:05:00.000+03:00Please forgive me, but this may be more of a quest...Please forgive me, but this may be more of a question than a comment, and may be a bit off topic.<BR/><BR/>This whole discussion of Holocaust era conversions is definitely fascinating from many points of view.<BR/><BR/>I have the impression that Rabbis are split on the question of whether a conversion is conditional (can be retroactively invalidated if found to have been done under certain circumstances) or permanent regardless of the future behavior of the one who converted.<BR/><BR/>If one believes that a person who has converted is a Jew for life, then it seems to me that great harm is being done to the innocent gentile in order to save the Jew from sinning. Afterall, if the gentile is already following the Noahide laws, she's OK. But if she becomes a Jew and then doesn't observe properly, she's on the hook. <BR/><BR/>Is it ethical to sacrifice the soul of a gentile to possibly stop a Jew from continuing to sin? What is the justification for this? Isn't it putting a stumbling block before the blind (gentile) to let her commit to a contract she cannot possibly keep?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27783956698361442602008-04-30T02:54:00.000+03:002008-04-30T02:54:00.000+03:00My father was raised in NY and attended an synagog...My father was raised in NY and attended an synagogue led by a prominent Ashkenazic Rabbi in the 1940s. <BR/><BR/>When the Rabbi's son fell in love with a gentile woman, the young woman converted and the wedding was performed.<BR/><BR/>My father, who was 16 at the time, realized that everything he had been taught about what the existence and expectations of Hashem was a bunch of subjective nonsense that even his (very famous) Rabbi didn't believe in. He saw that Halacha could be bent to the will of someone who really wants to get away with something they shouldn't be doing. To say this had a negative effect on his observance would be an understatement.<BR/><BR/>Intermarriage is NOT OK. Period.<BR/><BR/>The halachic arguments posted here appear to imply all I have to do to get my gentile woman converted is to FIRST marry her! and THEN go to the Rabbi! I know plenty of people who did exactly that.<BR/><BR/>That's not very much of a barrier to intermarriage.<BR/><BR/>I understand that some of these arguments are specific to Holocaust era circumstances, but the problem is that the Rabbis of TODAY apply these rulings and opinions without comparing the circumstances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62588396719917079502008-04-30T02:46:00.000+03:002008-04-30T02:46:00.000+03:00Jersey girl said:Can Rav Kluger's responsa regardi...Jersey girl said:<BR/><BR/>Can Rav Kluger's responsa regarding a community that had not yet tasted the beginnings of emancipation apply to those Jews in communities where full civil rights are protected under the law?<BR/>-----------<BR/>The Achiezer's original teshuva 3:26 was based on Rav Shlomo Kluger. He then retracted his heter because it simply wasn't working (3:28). <BR/>Rav Herzog's response is complex and contradictory. On the one hand he is very machmir - rejecting the position that conversion with ulterior motivation is valid bedieved in modern times. On the other hand he is saying that only when faced with the threat that a person will convert to Christianity if the spouse isn't converted should it be allowed. And at the same time he is insisting that really the rabbi has to decide whether the conversion is sincere. On top of that he states that this is not a universal heter but the result of the unique circumstances of herosim by the non-Jewish spouse.<BR/><BR/>I am still trying to find out what actually happened. A rav in Switzerland is actively trying to find the answer.<BR/><BR/>In sum it is not clear what Rav Herzog wanted - he seemed to reject conversion but then gives permission to the local rabbonim to convert if they see fit. Is he poskening or just throwing the hot potato back ?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55771090985977172672008-04-30T01:27:00.000+03:002008-04-30T01:27:00.000+03:00Today's news from Israel:http://www.vosizneias.com...Today's news from Israel:<BR/>http://www.vosizneias.com/2008/04/bnei-brak-israel-arson-suspected-in.html#links<BR/><BR/>And some history:<BR/>http://pogrom.org.il/eng_index.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80598520565912690902008-04-29T23:00:00.000+03:002008-04-29T23:00:00.000+03:00"I see the great and terrible tragedy of hundreds ..."I see the great and terrible tragedy of hundreds of families who wish to emigrate to Israel "<BR/><BR/>1. The requirement that one be a Jew k'halacha has been removed as an issue with regard to citizenship (refuge) in the State of Israel.(Amendment to the Law of Return).<BR/><BR/>2. The circumstances that applied to Holocaust era Europe (ie. Most of these non‑Jewish spouses have special merit because they saved their Jewish spouse from death by means of refusing to fulfill the orders of the evil Nazis to separate and divorce their Jewish spouse. Thus they put themselves in great danger and they were sent to concentration camps.) are thankfully not relevant.<BR/><BR/>3. Rav Herzog states: "However if it is possible for them to remain in the country but they still want to emigrate to Israel it would seem that their intent is for the sake of Heaven because they are uprooting themselves and leaving their source of livelihood to move to a different land and specifically Israel. Thus it is clear that their intent it to be a part of the Jewish people and land."<BR/><BR/>The Jewish people have now had experience with the result of conversions that have been done for the benefit of those who have no interest in becoming Observant Jews but who only wish to live in Israel, that is replacing halachic Judaism with Zionist Nationalism. It would seem that the proliferation of pork stores, mechalel Shabbos, anti Semitic incidents and a crematorium would demonstrate that those who convert in order to become citizens of a secular State do not put their lot together with that of the Jewish people. <BR/><BR/>4. "Nevertheless there is still basis to decide in their favor according to the view of Rav Shlomo Kluger (Chochmas Shlomo E.H. #11:5 and Tov Taam veDaas). He says that in circumstances where it is clear that they will not separate from each other under any circumstances and furthermore the Jewish spouse will give up Judaism and convert to Christianity - it is possible to be lenient."<BR/><BR/>Rav Shlomo Kluger was a Dayyan in Brody, Galicia. Chochmat Shlomo was published in 1825, before Franz Joseph's 1849 Emancipation of the Jews. In Galicia by 1853 there was already a backlash and new bans against Jews acquiring real estate and moving to certain areas of the empire were constituted. Soon "Jewish oaths" were restored, and in some districts, like Galicia, Jews were forbidden to hire Christian domestics. (Chazal say Bishul Akum leads to intermarriage).<BR/><BR/>Tuv Taam v'Daas was published in 1860. Galicia's Jews did not obtain equal status under the law until 1868.<BR/><BR/>Can Rav Kluger's responsa regarding a community that had not yet tasted the beginnings of emancipation apply to those Jews in communities where full civil rights are protected under the law?<BR/><BR/>With regard to the possibility that the "Jewish spouse will give up Judaism and convert to Christianity", we have also seen that in many cases the intermarried couple and their offspring will become involved in the Messianic Churches (ie Jews for Jesus) especially after the Gentile spouse and/or children are converted. In many cases the Gentile offspring of an intermarriage will use their Jewish education to become leaders in movements such as Jews for Jesus. (I can provide names and copies of correspondences to Rabbi Eidensohn).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com