tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post4331463493852495958..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Two opposing views: Must you listen to rabbis to violate the Torah?Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48611660691001988292011-04-04T00:06:25.226+03:002011-04-04T00:06:25.226+03:00The Kuzari suggests that the Saduccees' belief...The Kuzari suggests that the Saduccees' belief that the omer is counted from Sunday, not from the day after Yom Tov Pesah, was actually a legitimate one, except that the Sanhedrin had already decided that it was the day after Yom Tov, concluding the matter. In other words, the Saduccean opinion was a legitimate one, and if they had been in control of the Sanhedrin, their opinion would be the kosher one.<br /><br />Such things being the case, any zaqen mamre could easily make the argument that the Sanhedrin is wrong and he is right and that Horayot legitimates him.Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08590233386034506578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28356070044072179102011-04-03T20:37:32.948+03:002011-04-03T20:37:32.948+03:00@ Tal, This is the rambam's formulation that y...@ Tal, This is the rambam's formulation that you bring.<br /><br />Nevertheless, we have explicit Torah commands regarding errors made by the ruling Judges or Kahal, ie the Sanhedrin. <br />Indeed, the Talmud has Horiot to deal with this, and Rambam has Shogegot.<br />This leads to another qn: can TSBP contradict Torah ShebiKhtav? It seems to me that it can. In which case, what does one do?<br />These questions require one to look at all the assumptions made, to understand exactly what each category really means.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2141887837669562872011-04-03T05:31:03.700+03:002011-04-03T05:31:03.700+03:00I have not seen the Yad ha Melekh, but it seems th...I have not seen the Yad ha Melekh, but it seems that the commenters here are making a fundamental mistake. The Rambam says in Hilkhos Mamrim that the Sanhedrin is the repository of the Torah she be al Peh. It is their horaah as Torah she be al peh that is required to be listened to.<br />There is a limited category of "zil kri bei rav." If the Sanhedrin makes a horaah permitting what the possuk expressly forbids -- cheleiv, for example -- then one may not listen to them, and the Par Helem Davar shel tsibbur is not mechaper. Outside that limited category, however, you ARE required to listen to them, since they are the source of TSBP. And that is what a zaken mamreh is punished for -- paskening against their horaah. (The Rambam in Mamrim lists three categories that the mitzvah of <i>los sasur</i> applies: (a) things that the Sanhedrin learned from an oral tradition; (b) things that the Sanhedrin learned from the middos she ha Torah nidreshes ba hem and (c) laws which they instituted as a fence around the Torah (takkanos, gezeiros and minhagim). Mamrim 1:1-2.Tal Benscharnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82648459282898979542011-04-01T16:48:35.477+03:002011-04-01T16:48:35.477+03:00Interesting points.
Perhaps it is becauss we do n...Interesting points.<br /><br />Perhaps it is becauss we do not really know what a Sanhedrin was. We have virtually no record of a fully authentic Sanhedrin; The Talmuds were not written in times of existing Sanhedrins. The Sanhedrin that the Talmud refers to did not have a Kohen Gadol with Urim + Thumim and Hoshen MIshpat. And Neviim were nor presiding or even existing in most of the 2nd Temple period.<br />Zaken mamre - I have to think a bi more about that subject!Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25298847358404615682011-04-01T06:27:14.364+03:002011-04-01T06:27:14.364+03:00"But there are even areas where the Sanhedrin..."But there are even areas where the Sanhedrin cannot cross."<br /><br />But who says the Sanhedrin will know that it has crossed that line?<br /><br />The Sanhedrin will ALWAYS think it is right and that it has NOT crossed the line. If it thought it was wrong and had crossed the line, it itself would retract. Everyone always believes he himself is right.<br /><br />And everyone who disagrees with the Sanhedrin, will ALWAYS think that the Sanhedrin HAS crossed the line. So every zaqen mamre will ALWAYS cite the Yerushalmi in his defense, and he will always honestly and truthfully and sincerely believe the Sanhedrin has crossed a line.<br /><br />Whether the disagreement is whether the the Israeli Rabbinate is a kosher hekhsher or else one must use Bedatz; or whether the disagreement is whether the Torah was given at Sinai or not, the Sanhedrin will ALWAYS claim it is right, and the zaqen mamre will ALWAYS claim the Sanhedrin is wrong and has crossed the line. <br /><br />In short, the Yerushalmi and the Sanhedrin cannot exist in the same world without warfare between the two, if both are properly understood.Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08590233386034506578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84797661059520809462011-03-31T23:35:30.529+02:002011-03-31T23:35:30.529+02:00Perhaps you can correct me. The impression I get f...Perhaps you can correct me. The impression I get from BT yeshivot like Ohr sameach; from FFB Haredi educators; from the Daas Torah view as published in the Jewish Observer and Yated type publications - all claim it is "binding " today. <br />The left/ right isnt about disagreeing with the Sanhedrin. It is a problem where the Sanhedrin or its usurpers (ie those who claim they have the same level of authority) tell you to transgress something in the Torah.<br /><br />However, you are correct - because there is a logical issue here. A Sanhedrin might make an interpreation of the Torah, which contradicts it. The people who see this contradiction might be "Sadducees " of the day. <br />This opens up a much deeper discussion. So I see your point. But there are even areas where the Sanhedrin cannot cross.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82303923507337479562011-03-31T17:13:00.210+02:002011-03-31T17:13:00.210+02:00The Sifre and Bavli/Yerushalmi, do NOT apply to to...The Sifre and Bavli/Yerushalmi, do NOT apply to today's rabbis. Today's rabbis are NOT the Sanhedrin. Sources like Sefer ha-Hinukh might recommend treating rabbis like the Sanhedrin, but it is a suggestion, not a requirement.<br /><br />I am suggesting the Yerushalmi is writing a eulogy, because the logical conclusion of disobeying the Sanhedrin when it says left is right, is that everyone disobeys it whenever they disagree with it.Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08590233386034506578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43460572575155254812011-03-31T12:45:05.977+02:002011-03-31T12:45:05.977+02:00MIke,
I find it hard to follow your claim.
The Y...MIke,<br /><br />I find it hard to follow your claim.<br /><br />The Yerushalmi is writing a eulogy for the Sanhedrin? Firstly, I see the Talmud as more authoritative than the Sifre.<br /><br />Next, the views of the Talmud are trying to bring quality to the Sanhedrin, whereas the sifre is essentially giving them free reign.<br />A good example is Shabbeti Zvi. Since the rabbis apply this sifre to even post sanhedrin rabbis. Shabbetai zvi was the perfect example of telling people that left is right etc. So should everyone listen to him?<br /><br />Also, the Nefesh Hachayim brings a similar point, at least in principle - that no amount of Kabbalah can change one iota of Halacha.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7416885240770556402011-03-30T18:49:55.487+02:002011-03-30T18:49:55.487+02:00I hadn't seen the Yad ha-Melekh before, but I ...I hadn't seen the Yad ha-Melekh before, but I already knew about the contradiction between the Sifrei on the one hand, and the Bavli and Yerushalmi on the other.<br /><br />It seemed to me, that taken to its logical conclusion, the Bavli and Yerushalmi spells out a eulogy for the entire institution of Sanhedrin. Once everyone realizes what the Bavli and Yerushalmi say, then no one will ever obey the Sanhedrin, because they will plead that they have a disagreement with it and think the Torah says something different.<br /><br />Furthermore, there is always ein shaliah b'davar averah.<br /><br />Thus, it seemed to me that, in the Messianic Era, zaqen mamre will become like ben sorer u'moreh. <br /><br />Then, a friend showed me that the Ishbitzer Rebbe in Mei ha-Shiloah says Korah was correct but that he came too soon. But essentially, Koreah was correct in his rejection of any religious hierarchy whatsoever.<br /><br />See my blog post <a href="http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-we-have-sanhedrin-in-future.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Mikewind Dale (Michael Makovi)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08590233386034506578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59751660037740038482011-03-30T12:16:50.644+02:002011-03-30T12:16:50.644+02:00Yad Hamelech's position is the most rational. ...Yad Hamelech's position is the most rational. He would not be very well accepted in yeshiva circles today - or should I say "artscroll/yated" circles.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.com