tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3919746736528125825..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rabbi Vinas' reply - discussed and rejected IDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88765889180992235372008-10-19T04:22:00.000+02:002008-10-19T04:22:00.000+02:00out of curiosity....doesnt anyone have faith in th...out of curiosity....doesnt anyone have faith in the fact that this redemption will be tremendous and that HaShem will return all the sparks that have been lost? thats what bothers me the most about all this. a terrible thing you dont see how great HaShem is. maybe we just dont understand how HaShem is working. if you have all the answers...then be Moshiach and return us to our King cause its torture living like this. realize that we are scattered all over the place and we need HaShem to deliver us. instead of saying we aren't jewish...pray to HaShem to return all that are and be sensitive to us and those trying to help us. its nice and easy with papers saying youre a jew...all doors are open. you have no clue what this is like. i pray HaShem helps you cause at the end of it all, its not paper that makes us jewish, but the neshama that is not bound by the limitations of this world. aren't we supposed to be as numerous as the stars??...the people in this situation are such a small number...people act like every person in the world is saying this. why don't we look at commitment to Torah. regardless of barrier, we are here.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15939193160116325071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89091352690123116062008-09-26T11:11:00.000+03:002008-09-26T11:11:00.000+03:00shoshi said... I think it is nice that those tw...shoshi said...<BR/><BR/> I think it is nice that those two opinions exists.<BR/><BR/> If a descendend of Anussim does not want to keep Torah and Mitzwot, he can rely on Rav Eidensohn's opinion saying that he has no obligation whatsoever to do so.<BR/><BR/> On the other hand, I think that this opinion should not be used to look down on Anussim who want to be Mekabel Ol Torah u Mitzwot, and you should treat them with tact and help them.<BR/><BR/> It all depends on how things are presented. <BR/>=====================<BR/>You should be aware how your charges of insensitivy on the part of the halachic system & rabbinical authority - when they don't agree to accept your non-halachic viewpoint - appears to the majority of observant halachicly educated Jews. Finding some rabbi who is not recognized by his peers as a signifcant authority in halacha who agrees with your views - does not justify challenging and rejecting the overwhelming halachic understanding which rejects the validity of what he says.<BR/><BR/>Telling a person who thinks he is Jewish when he has no halachic basis for that assertion - is a distortion of halacha and prohibited. If he says I think I am Jewish - am I? Of course he needs to be treated with sensitivity. If he says I am sure I am Jewish and I don't care what the halacha says because it is wrong - the appropriateness of gentle tolerance obviously changes.<BR/><BR/>An outsider to any system - halacha, law medicine etc - who comes without any knowledge or competence in the area and criticizes and challenges the competence and integrity of the system and its authorities - is usually rejected.<BR/><BR/>Don't you think it is a tad arrogant on your part dictating that the rabbis need to accept the validity of a non-Jews claim and insist that they tell the guy that he has the option of being Jewish even though this is against the halacha?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14645238243753419492008-09-26T10:24:00.000+03:002008-09-26T10:24:00.000+03:00I think it is nice that those two opinions exists....I think it is nice that those two opinions exists.<BR/><BR/>If a descendend of Anussim does not want to keep Torah and Mitzwot, he can rely on Rav Eidensohn's opinion saying that he has no obligation whatsoever to do so.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I think that this opinion should not be used to look down on Anussim who want to be Mekabel Ol Torah u Mitzwot, and you should treat them with tact and help them. <BR/><BR/>It all depends on how things are presented. <BR/><BR/>And yes, remarks saying "Oh, you are not even jewish" can be very hurtful for someone who is just completely changing his lifestyle in order to return to the religion of his ancestors.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if you say: "Look, you have no obligation, it's all your choice, until you confirm it in a Giur/Giur le Chumra", it sounds completely different.<BR/><BR/>As far as discouraging is concerned: I also think that someon who has a claim that he is of matrilinear jewish descend should not be discouraged of becoming jewish. But don't you worry. People's lack of tact and sensitivity will be discouraging enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60072056834614073202008-09-26T10:06:00.000+03:002008-09-26T10:06:00.000+03:00Do you mean the secretary was a descendend of anus...Do you mean the secretary was a descendend of anusim?<BR/><BR/>Because the father has nothing to do with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85748455958750525092008-06-18T20:04:00.000+03:002008-06-18T20:04:00.000+03:00I have a question for Itamar Ross:First of all, I ...I have a question for Itamar Ross:<BR/><BR/>First of all, I agree with Rabbi Eidensohn's and Jersey Girl's pleas for you to remain. <BR/><BR/>We only learn from each other by sharing our ideas and our knowledge.<BR/><BR/>My question is this: I know a man who was married to a Jewish woman for 20 years, and then impregnated his gentile secretary unexpectedly. He divorced his wife 6 months later and married the gentile in a civil ceremony a month after that.<BR/><BR/>A daughter was born from this union shortly after they were married.<BR/><BR/>How does the concept of "Zera Yisrael" apply to this child if she says she wants to convert? Should the child be allowed to convert because she has a Jewish father? Or should she be banned from converting so as to not condone intermarriage?<BR/><BR/>This is a serious question and I truly interested in your thoughts on the matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1727538630116188392008-06-18T19:54:00.000+03:002008-06-18T19:54:00.000+03:00I think steg's comment does not apply to Rabbi Vin...I think steg's comment does not apply to Rabbi Vinas. The interview that was posted yesterday said his parents and family all considered themselves Christians, just with some uncommon family customs. The concept of being Jewish first began in the 1970s when his father went into a synagogue for the first time. There was not a strong tradition of matrilineal descent in this case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16920760749382141132008-06-18T16:08:00.000+03:002008-06-18T16:08:00.000+03:00I have a relative who was from a family of annusim...I have a relative who was from a family of annusim in Barcelona. The local rabbi at the time consulkted with R. Ovadiah Yosef who paskened that they need giur lechumra. That meant a complete halachic giyur <BR/>including a brit milah for the 15 year old son without the attempts to dissuade them not to be Jewish.<BR/><BR/>One question that came up years later was about the ketuva. Depending on which rabbanut in Israel some put the giyur into the ketuva while some did not<BR/><BR/>BTW I very recently spent several months in Madrid. The local rabbi told me that they have very few cases of annusim returning to the communityELIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05145177086325155546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51301258990632244192008-06-18T16:06:00.000+03:002008-06-18T16:06:00.000+03:00Dear Itamar, I have been trying to research the ha...Dear Itamar, <BR/><BR/>I have been trying to research the halachic concept of "zera Yisrael" since it was first mentioned on this blog a while back. <BR/><BR/>So far I have not been able to find mention of this halachic concept other than in the responsum of Rav Uziel.<BR/><BR/>Rav Uziel's opinion on this issue was ultimately rejected by the majority of Poskim in favor of Poskim like the Beis Yitzchok and R Chaim Ozer. <BR/><BR/>Rav Uziel’s responsa have been in the public domain for many decades, pored over by many people. <BR/><BR/> Halachic process is primarily a group process. When a large majority of Poskim sees an argument one way, they will trump a single (even) greater scholar. <BR/><BR/> Rav Uziel asserts, those who initially are unwilling to accept the yoke of mitzvos will ultimately do so after conversion. <BR/><BR/>If anything, in the decades since he penned his responsum, we have had time to observe the conduct of thousands of candidates, and to empirically determine whether converts according to more liberal protocols move towards greater observance or not. <BR/><BR/>Rav Uziel’s conjecture has not been borne out over time and therefore has been rejected by the majority of Poskim.<BR/><BR/>If you are aware of other sources for the halachic concept of Zera Yisrael, I would be grateful to you if you could please guide me. <BR/><BR/>I think that everyone who logs into this blog does so in order to learn. If you have knowledge that others are seeking, it would be very kind of you to share it. <BR/><BR/>Knowledge is the basis of understanding, so please do continue to help others (like me) to understand. <BR/><BR/>Thanks again for what I am sure is a very time consuming effort on your part to contribute to this blog. <BR/><BR/>You should know that I, for one am very grateful for and feel that I have learned a great deal from your contributions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65988290940848217242008-06-18T06:25:00.000+03:002008-06-18T06:25:00.000+03:00In response to this post, I too have decided no lo...In response to this post, I too have decided no longer to post here.<BR/><BR/>Rav Eidensohn writes: "As we see in the Talmud, understanding Torah requires making inquiries of our rabbis – even if they sometimes cause discomfort."<BR/><BR/>When necessary and true, and when there is no alternative, of course. But when "inquiries" are made because of preconceived notions of "Daas Torah" (a non-Jewish idea itself) with no regard whatsoever to the harm they cause, that is using the quest for truth as a lame excuse for bashing ideological rivals.<BR/><BR/>Given the current conversion controversy, you are in good company Rabbi Vinas. Take it as a badge of pride. You have been publically reviled along with the greatest dati-leumi Torah scholars in Israel.<BR/><BR/>Many poskim, of whom I have no doubt Rav Eidensohn is fully aware, recognize the concept of "zera yisrael". The concept is accepted halachah le-maaseh today among most Torah scholars and dayanim today (at least outside the Ashkenazic charedi world).<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Eidensohn and his rebbe are free to reject or accept this concept according to their Torah understanding, but not to bash those who do accept it. No Rav Eidensohn, you cannot claim that the burden of proof is on those who do accept it, who may then be reviled and shamed in public as you have done here to Rabbi Vidas.<BR/><BR/>"Daas Torah" is no mandate for doing evil, though many of its proponents see it as exactly such.<BR/><BR/>Along with Rabbi Vinas, my participation at this blog is has now ended.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28559469400049375472008-06-18T05:13:00.000+03:002008-06-18T05:13:00.000+03:00i don't see what's so confusing here — R' Viñas sa...i don't see what's so confusing here — R' Viñas said that his return procedure for anusím fulfills all the requirements of a normal halakhic giyur; and that when someone has a strong tradition of Jewish matrilineal descent, you should consider it a ספק. i assume that means that since they might be Jewish, the rules against ריבית would apply to them; and you couldn't feed them non-kosher food, etc, but also wouldn't rely on them to make kiddush for you, for instance. makes sense to me.Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07694556690190505030noreply@blogger.com