tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3904507875347514312..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: EJF - attracting non-Jews to proselytize - is permittedDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62530707265522506452009-07-28T21:44:12.813+03:002009-07-28T21:44:12.813+03:00Aharon, (way up top)
You are right they are not be...Aharon, (way up top)<br />You are right they are not being told that the organization is there to convert intermarrieds. They are being told that they are trying to raise the standards of conversion. Last Shabbos, I was at someone's house and the husband told me three men in his kollel took some course to be on their baytai din. This is what they were told. Also, the RCA standards are actually higher. They know who is on their baytai din, real rabbis who have done conversions but, not the one before them. Whereas now we see about EJF. <br /><br />Roni, <br />The EJF doesn't provide mentoring. They make you bring them your shul rabbi. They ask him to find you a mentor. They also ask him to "watch your attendance in shul." This is ridiculous. Anyone can go to shul and go home to watch TV. However, I've heard this from rabbis. They say, you have to live in my area so I can make sure you go to shul every week. Also, what about Brooklyn? In Brooklyn, a woman who goes to shul is like a prostitute that's how UNacceptable it is to go to shul.<br /><br />I have blogged about EJF and I will do it again. They are this organization that just formed itself and run around with their ego telling everyone they better and have higher standards. Actually, they don't.Michaltastikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06358698308334285154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49167800258579944832009-07-01T02:30:07.687+03:002009-07-01T02:30:07.687+03:00[...]It's why no letters exist from Gedolim to...[...]It's why no letters exist from Gedolim to openly support EJF and their methods. The most I have ever seen him produce were letters from Rabbis, before his methods and ideas were well known, who praised the concept of gathering in order to upgrade and unify conversion standards. They were praising upgrading and unifying conversion standards. They were not praising this phony's ideas of whitewashing intermarriage by converting the goya in a method that is clearly substandard according to Halacha.Gilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10234858598705225612009-06-30T20:42:52.337+03:002009-06-30T20:42:52.337+03:00Mekubal wrote:
Once again Roni, you can read thin...Mekubal wrote:<br /><br />Once again Roni, you can read things anyway you like, but that is not what this says. This says, "And that there is to take hold of the understanding that it is permitted to teach Torah to a Goy if his mind is to convert." I am convinced that either you do not know Hebrew or that you are intentionally misreading these statements.<br /><br />Your rejection of R' Efrati's letter of clarification is ridiculous. He is R' Eliashiv's right hand man. Is he lying? Is he woefully misinformed?<br /><br />At the request of R' Eidensohn I asked R' Eisenstein about R' Efrati's clarification. His statement was that he understood R' Eliashiv's position the same way.<br />==================<br />With the confirmation from both Rav Efrati and Rav Eisenstein that Rav Eliashiv's teshuva 3:140 is not talking about proselytizing or inspiring a nonJew to convert - I think it is time to end this thread.<br /><br />Roni - any more repetition of your distorted and abusive ad hominem comments will simply be rejected. Whether it is your problematic readings of Rav Eliashiv and other poskim or whether it is your reflex denunciation of R' Bomzer. Enough is enough. However you have served the valuable service of confirming for us the tenuous and problematic nature of R' Tropper's authority to do what he is doing.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14010661751913958972009-06-30T20:25:10.983+03:002009-06-30T20:25:10.983+03:00Roni said...
It says the follwoing: "ויש לתפו...<b>Roni said...</b><br /><i>It says the follwoing: "ויש לתפוס השעה המתרת ללמוד תורה לגוי אם דעתו להתגייר":<br /><br />These wrods are read: WE should hold like the opinion that holds that one is permitted to teach torah to non Jew if he has in mind to convert".</i><br /><br />Once again Roni, you can read things anyway you like, but that is not what this says. This says,<b> "And that there is to take hold of the understanding that it is permitted to teach Torah to a Goy if his mind is to convert."</b> I am convinced that either you do not know Hebrew or that you are intentionally misreading these statements.<br /><br />Your rejection of R' Efrati's letter of clarification is ridiculous. He is R' Eliashiv's right hand man. Is he lying? Is he woefully misinformed? <br /><br />At the request of R' Eidensohn I asked R' Eisenstein about R' Efrati's clarification. His statement was that he understood R' Eliashiv's position the same way.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4977662181019447922009-06-30T16:48:34.745+03:002009-06-30T16:48:34.745+03:00Roni wrote:
Dt: Insead of wasting your time with t...Roni wrote:<br />Dt: Insead of wasting your time with these stupid internet wars go back to yeshiva and start learning! and you will see ho wludicours you sound on this claim you're making!<br />====================<br />I am simply astonished at the quality of your justification for proselytizing. You claim that the EJF has the backing of many gedolim - where is the explicit permission from any of them for EJF program?<br /><br />You could have ended this so called internet war two years ago by simply having Rav Eliashiv explicity write what you claim is is view. At least get Rav Eisenstein to explicity say that this teshuva means what you claim and that Rav Efrati is mistaken. <br /><br />The obvious answer is that there is no such heter and that you are ascribing to Rav Eliashiv a view he rejects. The weaker your justification is shown to be - the more abusive and loud you become.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-36255182395086506342009-06-30T16:15:34.565+03:002009-06-30T16:15:34.565+03:00One of the obvious problem with Roni's asserti...One of the obvious problem with Roni's assertion is that he is basing himself on a flawed work as it stated in the beginning of Kovetz Teshuvos<br /><br />קובץ זה נאסף ונלקט מספרים קובצים וכו'. וזאת למודעי כי ברוב התושבות לא היה גוף כתה"י לנגד עינינו, וסמכנו על הנדפס ויש מהם שבאו בחסר ושינויי לשון. כך שאין מקום כלל לקבוע דבר מהם. התשובות נלקטו ונסדרו ע"ד בלבד ואם שגינו אתנו תלין משוגתנו, ואנו תפלה להשי"ת שלא יצא דבר תקלה ח"ו מתח"י.<br /><br />With all your pilpul the text you are using is at best missing significant information and at worst is inaccurate. I cited Rav Efrati who explicity is explaining the meaning of 3:140 - and it is not what Roni/Tropper is claiming.<br /><br />Instead of making these analysis of a flawed text - why don't you simply ask Rav Eliashiv to write you a teshuva that justifies what you are doing. Absent that you have absolutely no valid justification.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8541891815538199962009-06-30T15:27:19.292+03:002009-06-30T15:27:19.292+03:00DT,
regarding the "ad hominom" remark, ...DT,<br /><br />regarding the "ad hominom" remark, it is funny coming from one who over two years has not missed the opportunity to write in your open name or in the names (or at best allow "ohers") to vicously attack Rabbi Tropper with the most vile venomous hatred!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42025427862275211212009-06-30T15:25:56.501+03:002009-06-30T15:25:56.501+03:00Mekubal/DT
I will not put the bomzer thing to bed...Mekubal/DT<br /><br />I will not put the bomzer thing to bed, as it is relevant to the discussion. The more you and other shaymot shenikreu loy just ignore it and do not talk about it (at best) is because you know that this is the main reason why GEDOYLEY YISROEL support RT! because his acitivites underine the fake factories that exist and this danger is far graver than all the pseudo dangers you have created in your internet wars against tropper.<br /><br />Gedoyley Yisroel realize that Tropper is enhancing the stadnardss reduced by the factories that have the stamp of approval of so many peiple and has the tacit silence of other including those who find time and energy over stupid and minor issues in the area of gerut!<br /><br />Mekubal I can help but see that and Dt are one and the same person with the many sheimos shenikreu loy. you share the same obssession about tropper...you calimed things about Rav Eisenstein that I know are not accurate to put it mildly and on and on. <br /><br />Your guess does not help much for although he does not publicize in the internet the way T does, anyone in the know how of gerus knows about him and everyone who is a little bit involved in the issue knows about someone who has furnished $$$zonah money to make a fake gerut. So if someone like you is really intereestd in puting your energy to fight Tropper (although you claim to ahave no time ...and are busy learning dayanut) it simply baffles the mind that you do not really deal with the real worries and dangers...something fishy....<br /><br /><br />So too, your bogus reaon that he is not trying to coach other rabbis does not help to answer the tmiha atzumah agains you/dt is astonisihng! for if you are about the *person* or ABOUT THE PROBLEM IT BRINGS KLAL YISROEL? If you were about the latter and you would understand that the numbers of this person's factories false gerim are staggering you would drop your limited time and energy about the minor infractions (in your mind of T) and you would really rail about the real danger to klal yisroel.<br />So you would even dream to say that he is not doing the same danger as tropper. Only a person with an axe to grind would ever think that Tropper's doing is agreater danger than Bomzer. Even the statement that you/Dt stated that "both stibk" is pathetic and shows that there is an axe to grind!<br /><br />One is brigning GOYIM in klal yisroel and real intermarriage; the othe at worse is teh avera of "prosetyzing" but not actual goyim, for EJF only does conversion after real kabbalat hamitzvot. <br /><br /><br />I cannot help it but seeing you and Dt the same person. there are some comments that mekubal cannot hide the DT within him! you can have twnty blogs and put different spins but one thing unifies you: the obssession and hatred at the person Tropper that places your time and energy to focus on him as if he is the evil scum of the earth!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17006961193909666692009-06-30T15:08:53.715+03:002009-06-30T15:08:53.715+03:00Mekubal/Dt
the parts that are touching our situat...Mekubal/Dt<br /><br />the parts that are touching our situation (which clearly the paragraph that begins with "nissuey taarovet" is the the the first he talks about it as it understood from the teshuva) is quite strughtforward and is the opposite of your position icluding the "clarification".Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44671354431062602412009-06-30T15:07:03.478+03:002009-06-30T15:07:03.478+03:00DT/mekubal furtehr writes:" ) He rejects the ...DT/mekubal furtehr writes:" ) He rejects the straightforward meaning of the text. Especially the words אם דעתו להתגייר. With Roni's current understanding these words do not fit. However if we understand that the text the way R' Efrati clarifies it, these words make perfect sense".<br /><br />Roni: AS we have shown before, the "claraification" makes no sense whatsoever in the entire sentence of "she al yedey zeh shemishtatef beshiurim, yesh sikuyim svirim sheyten el liboy lehissgayer", which cannot be read in any other way than, the fellow is NOT YET THOUGHT AND DECIDED TO CONVERT! AND WE NEED THE SHIURIM TO BRING OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE WILL THINK TO HIS HEART TO CONVERT,<br /><br />I'll explain to you how you can read the words "אם דעתו להתגייר" for it is not the whole sentence; it is part of a whole sentence!:<br /><br />It says the follwoing: "ויש לתפוס השעה המתרת ללמוד תורה לגוי אם דעתו להתגייר":<br /><br />These wrods are read: WE should hold like the opinion that holds that one is permitted to teach torah to non Jew if he has in mind to convert". This means that the opinion that is matir to teach to a prospective ger was talking practically about a prospective ger (so RYSE here quoed the way it was brought down). But that opinion didn't state that this is the only way which it is permitted. He thinks that the rationale for this permission does not lie on the *already* commitment to convert; for at the end is he still a non jew and a non jew is not allowed to study torah! so what is the permission for him to learn? SO Rav ELyashiv understands that the reason is: that when the teching of torah to a non jew is part of what helps him to get closer to the giyur, such a limud is not included in the issur. Iow, it's not that the *gvra* is already permitted to learn torah (As he is still a goy); but the type of *limud* that helps a goy come closer to giyur that type of limud is permitted. So, when we have a situation that giyur is ideal (to prevent issur chamur) that limud might lead to this ideal giyur then this issur is permitted.<br /><br />Rembmer: the whole sentnce of the teshuva does not begin to make sense by the "clarficiations" position.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30229676983105696682009-06-30T14:55:50.291+03:002009-06-30T14:55:50.291+03:00DT/Mekubal writes: "4) Roni mistakenly assume...DT/Mekubal writes: "4) Roni mistakenly assumes that R' Eliashiv's letter says that it is l'chatchila to encourage a person to convert. I challenge Roni to find the word l'chatchila or encourage anywhere in the text of the Teshuva. Rather he choses to LIE about the meaning of שיתן אל לבו hoping to mislead people".<br /><br /><br />Roni: Look who is despaired and is losing his internrt wars! How pathetic...how ludicrous for a ben torah who passed the messivta level to make such a statement!<br /><br />He challenges me to find the word "lechtchila" or the word "Encourage".<br /><br />There is no need for anything but the PERMISSION from Rav Elyashiv that he attend the shiurim and we teach ity to them. Thisis number one "lechatchila"! Furthermore: Obviously we are not talknig about one shiur but about many shiurim as it is simple that he will not be persuaded by one shiur and it is simple the words of the teshuva "besshiurim". He says that there is a very awaited special outcome that allows us to over the issur. He says BLACK ON WHITE that we "מצבם כאילו בדיעבד": For anyone inpast messivta level knows that this is not a literal "diavad" (expost facto) because we ARE teaching him lechatchila, BUT DUE TO THE EXTENUATING CIRCUMNSTANCES we can see "THEIR SITUATION AS IF IT WOULD BE A SITUATION OF DIAVAD".<br /><br />Dt: Insead of wasting your time with these stupid internet wars go back to yeshiva and start learning! and you will see ho wludicours you sound on this claim you're making!ROninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69887878688641861862009-06-30T14:49:33.641+03:002009-06-30T14:49:33.641+03:00DT/Mekubal vekol shmoyssov write:
"3) Dismis...DT/Mekubal vekol shmoyssov write:<br /><br />"3) Dismissing R' Efrati's letter of clarification. Quite simply R' Efrati is and has for quite sometime been R' Eliashiv's right hand man. If he writes, as there is evidence that he did, and D"T even posted the letter http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/06/rav-reuven-feinnstein-kiruv-and.html. However Roni wants to claim that this signed letter of R' Efrati is hearsay. The truth that the letter exists, and can be viewed. R' Eliashiv obviously felt the need for clarifications over what was printed in Kovetz Teshuvot, as R' Efrati explains in his letter".<br /><br />A few errors: a) Rav Efrati is NOT his right man regarding GErut! b) his clarification in the name of Rav ELyashiv over this letter does not make any sense for any bar bey rav dchad yomeh that reads the letter as printed is OPPOSITE TO what Rav EFrati is writing!, 3) Especially that we have anothe r letter by Rav LEyashiv's son in Law (Rav silberstein) who says that his FIL rules that sometimes it is an inyan to be MEKAREV (PROLETYZE) the children of itermarried couples (who are goyim - their mother goya) (even though there is an issur gomur to teach goyishe children and EVEN THOUGH IT POSES A GREAT DANGER OF FORSTERING INTERMARRIAGE as the other children in school (who are not so much from frum origin) might think these children are JEwish) IN ORDER TO BE MEZAKEH THEIR PARENTS for if the children would live a Jewish life (by "proselytizing to them and teachings them the beauty of yiddishkeyt) these children will convert and SO TOO THEIR MOTHERS! SO not only is the "clarafication" of Rav ELyashiv fly in the face of the written printed teshuva; but it goes against another ruling by Rav ELyashiv recorded and written by Rav Zilberstein who is Rav Elyashiv's son in law.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74015316485300878902009-06-30T14:43:08.469+03:002009-06-30T14:43:08.469+03:00"2)Thinking that Kovetz Teshuvot was written ..."2)Thinking that Kovetz Teshuvot was written first person by R' Eliashiv. When in fact it was cobbled together by his grandson. Most of the Teshuvot found in it are truncated from what he originally wrote thus making them hard to understand".<br /><br />While they do did not have the original kssav yad, and they may be missing a word and have shinuy leshonot, nevertheless it was written from what has been printed in sfrorim and kovtzim. <br /><br />This teshuva and the statment make it clear about the content and the idea thereoff, that leaves no room for the possibilityof the "clarification" as the teshuva is clear that we are dealing about someone who is not yet interested to convert and the shiurim might be reasonable possibilties that he will start thinking to convert by his attendance at the shiurim.roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57504844343556740632009-06-30T14:37:46.245+03:002009-06-30T14:37:46.245+03:00Dt/Mekubal writes:") His insistance on thinki...Dt/Mekubal writes:") His insistance on thinking that שיתן אל לבו means something stronger than encouraging. He simply does not know Hebrew. For those of us to spend our leaves in Hebrew speaking society and Yeshivot. Roni's error here is clear. For those that do not, the Reuven Alcalay citation proves him wrong".<br /><br />ROn: it's a plain rachmonut on you that you must bring a REuven Alcalay to make your error so blatant.<br /><br />No matter how you will slice it the sentence: "שעל ידי זה שהצד הנכרי משתתתף בשיעורים יש סיכויים סבירים שיתן אל לבו להתגייר",<br /><br />means that we are dealing with someone who has not yet put in his heart the idea that he should convert and only through the participation at the shiurim he will get a new idea that he should covnert. This is far stronger than "Encouraging" someone who already thought about converting! Open and shut case. you can drey how much you want...but the sentence reads the way I read it (which was BTw that you need your false <br />"clarification").roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-11291248719191989562009-06-30T14:33:57.663+03:002009-06-30T14:33:57.663+03:00The first sign that Dt/Mekubal is losing his long ...The first sign that Dt/Mekubal is losing his long stupid internet war for years is that is so despaired that he must LIE to make a point! FIx your heading before anything, I never said that "proselytizing" is permitted in *general*. <br /><br />number two: I guess the Baal HaHagaddah should have listened to you, and instead of "hakheh ess shinov" he should have adopted another method for DT/Mekubal would come running that this metrhod shows that we the position of the chochom is weakened so he has to resort to "hakheh shinov" (a little more than plain "ad hominom").<br /><br />NOw, after you have proven to make simple errors for years (starting with your misreading of Igrot Moshe EH 2/4 and your insistence on Rav Sternbuch's position to criticize Tropper when MOST OF HIS POINTS ARE REJECTED BY RAV MOSHE, RAV HENKIN, RAV Y KAMENETSKY, RAV AURBACH, RAV ELYASHIV) you now compoud your errors by stupidly insissting to things that every bar bey rav dechad yoma knows that you are mistaking!<br /><br />to be continuedRoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58496550577447193012009-06-30T14:26:40.867+03:002009-06-30T14:26:40.867+03:00AND IT COMES ABOUT THROUGH THE BEAUTY OF TORAH AND...AND IT COMES ABOUT THROUGH THE BEAUTY OF TORAH AND IT'S TEACHINGS WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HE DID NOT EXPERINCE UNTIL NOW, WE WANT HIM TO FEEL A NEW EXPERIENCE SO THAT HE WILL DECIDE A NEW IDEA FROM SCRATCH "I WANT TO CONVERT (NOT SOMETHING THAT COMES FROM HIMSELF, BUT FROM OUR CONVEYING TO HIM A MESSAGE THAT WILL ENTICE HIM WITH THE NEW WILL AND HEART TO COVNERT!), THESE ARE DVORIM PSHUTIM; ONLY SOMEONE WHO (TO BORROW THE OTHER STOOGE) WHO DOES NOT KNOW "HAVANAT HANIKRA" AND HAVANAH BICHLAL CAN MAKE THESE ACROBATIC SUMMARSAULTS!<br />======================================<br />LL COOl (dT, mEKUBAL, VEKOL HASHEMOS SHEKORREY ESS ATZMOY KDEY LEKLL EJF),<br /><br /><br />'Hate to break your bubbles but those girls who you say got a new heart and now see clearly the beauty of Judaism are really doing it for their boyfriends/husbands.",<br /><br />rONI: FIrst of all we are not talking about unmarried "girls" that Bomzer/RAP and all their names are really doing for their boyfriedns or better the parent of the boyfriend plus an e$$$nan zonah fee to the shabbos goy! But EJf does NOT do these services to "grilfriends". Secondly, they actually have botey dinim of respected rabbis who are not involved in a mindset to give a stamp of approval to those who are not sincere. They only do it after they are convinced the propsect is really sincere to commit to Torah and mitzvot. <br /><br />LL COOL then tells us the of 180 degrees critic of the previous one (something so odd by the critc of this blog that he can complain from the three sides of his mouth: that tropper prozletyzes and that he would not convert unless they become haredi) <br /><br />"You are also naively or stubbornly believe that a person who is dating or marrying non Jewish girl is going to become haredi and live in Lakewood. It is not going to happen".<br /><br />Roni: Number sometimes it happens. Number most of the times when this does not happen we have couple that remains in theirorginal city and live a Jewish life of shmirat shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamishpcha and other practices of Jewish lifestyle that many in the MO community (like many inn the haredi community) are unable to provide, or better peole like HB don't even ask for anything in many cases and especially if there is an some $$$ attached!<br /><br />and the fact that so many do end up in the EJf shows how the criticism that is filled with sheer hatred of EJF does not reflect reality, so that many of them find thmselves converting to a lifestyle of Jewish observance and attachment to AM Hashem through the observanceof torah and itzvot and while they stil remain in their original practices and skill in life.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75878796161987255872009-06-30T13:42:58.539+03:002009-06-30T13:42:58.539+03:00Roni,
To put the Bomzer thing to bed, as it is a ...Roni,<br /><br />To put the Bomzer thing to bed, as it is a constant red-herring that you throw out. I think that false conversions done by him or anyone else are disgusting. Reducing our standards on geirut only damages klal Yisrael, and klal Yisrael is already in enough trouble.<br /><br />I cannot speak for the blog owner R' Eidensohn, as to why he does not address that specific issue more. However, my guess would be that the reason is that R' Bomzer, unlike R' Tropper, does not publicize his doings and post advertisements on the web and in newspapers. Also he is not trying to coax other Rabbis into doing it with him.<br /><br />So while what he is doing is a problem, and damages klal Yisrael. In my mind it is not the same level of threat that we have from the problematic actions of R' Tropper.<br /><br />For further clarification, R' Eidensohn and myself are two different people, with different views. If you take the time to notice, I have my own blog that deals with vastly different issues. However I enjoy the, at times, intellectually stimulating conversation here. Also I need to find something to do so that I don't forget English, since the majority of my life is spent in Hebrew.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25350904543572552382009-06-30T13:20:29.679+03:002009-06-30T13:20:29.679+03:00Roni has been unable or unwilling to provide the f...Roni has been unable or unwilling to provide the full text of the disputed Teshuva. Therefore I am posting it here for the sake of clarity. Simply reading this Teshuva in its entirety shows the truncated nature of the text. The presence of an ellipsis in the printed text itself is a sign that even in the sefer we are not reading(as is often the case with this sefer and the reason that R' Eliashiv and those closest to him have felt the need to issue numerous clarifications) the full teshuva that was penned by R' Eliashiv, but rather the parts that were included by his grandson in the final formulation. It should be noted that the same issues occured within the Yalkut Yosef, which as lead to different editions and at times estrangement between R' Ovadiah and his son R' Yaakov.<br /><br /><br />קובץ תושבות חלק ג' <br />סימן קם - האופנים בו מותר ללמד בן נח תורה<br />רעק"א בתשובותיו סימן מ"א דן בגוי שהחליט להתגיר ומכיון שבמקום שהוא נמצא אי אפשר לגיירו בגלל חוק המלכות לכן הוא מבקש שעל כל פנים ילמדו לו מקרא וסדר תפילה ואחרי כן ילך למקום אחר ושם יתגייר. ומסקנתו 'יאין בכחי להתיר".<br />אמנם במאירי בפרק זי מסנהדוין כתב "אם עסק בתורה שלא לכוונת קיום עקרי מצוותיה אלא שלבו חפץ לירד לידיעת תורתינו הקדושה ותלמודינו ראוי ליענש - מכל מקום כל שהוא עוסק בעקרי ז' מצוות ובפרטיהם - מכבדין אותו אפילו - וכל שכן אם חקירתו לדעת לבא עד תכלית שלימות תורתינו עד שאם ימצאנה שלימה יחזור ויתגייר - כל שכן אם עוסק ומקיים עקרי מצוותיה לשמה אף בשאר חלקים שבה שלא משבע מצוות עכ"ל.<br />וברד"ל שפירושו על מדרש רבה פרשת נשא פרשה י"ג אות ט"ו כתב דכוונת המדרש שם כמה שאמרו "עכו"ם המתגייר ועוסק בתורה הריהו ככהן גדול דמכיון דבא לההגייר רשאי לעסוק בכל התורה נוסף על ז' מצוות בני נח ע"ש.<br />...מכל זה נראה דרק בנשואי תערובת, שעל ידי זה ,שהצד הנכרי משתתף בשיעורים יש סיכויים סבירים שיתן אל לבו להתגייר, ועל ידי זה מצילין את היהודי או היהודיה לשוב בתשובה יש לראות במצבם כאילו בדיעבד, ויש לתפוס הדעה המתרת ללמוד תורה לגוי אם דעתו להתגייר.<br />אבל באופן דלא שייך הטעם זה, אין מקום להתיר דהרי איכא תרי איסורא, חדא, האיסור המוטל על הגוי, עכו"ם העוסק כתורה חייב מיתה, ולפי זה היהודי הלומד תורה אתו עובר משום לפני עוור. ועוד מה שאמרו חז"ל בחגיגה דף י"ח אין מוסרין דברי תורה לעכו"ם משום דכתיב ומשפטים בל ידעום.mekubalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41824223140953348342009-06-30T13:04:08.365+03:002009-06-30T13:04:08.365+03:00Mt (MR),
you should be last to talk about these t...Mt (MR),<br /><br />you should be last to talk about these things (in addition that you don't begin to understand these issues) you ARE MATIR TO TAKE E$$$NAN ZONAH LECHATCHILAH TO ADD EREV RAV BEYISROEL!roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21692586955808399862009-06-30T08:32:36.517+03:002009-06-30T08:32:36.517+03:00First and foremost it is becoming increasingly cle...First and foremost it is becoming increasingly clear that Roni is finding himself on the loosing end of this argument. First primary indicator is his heavy reliance on <a href="ad%20hominem" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem</a> attacks. This is a tactic only employed by those lacking a substantial counter argument. I for one would like to see Roni formulate a response without the need to rely upon insults and deprications.<br /><br />Second is his apparent need to spam post and us ALL CAPS WHICH SIGNIFIES YELLING AND SCREAMING instead of respectfully dealing the issues at hand in a clear and concise manner.<br /><br />Finally here are five errors that Roni has made(whether intentionally or unawares is only for him to say)<br /><br />1) His insistance on thinking that שיתן אל לבו means something stronger than encouraging. He simply does not know Hebrew. For those of us to spend our leaves in Hebrew speaking society and Yeshivot. Roni's error here is clear. For those that do not, the Reuven Alcalay citation proves him wrong.<br /><br />2)Thinking that Kovetz Teshuvot was written first person by R' Eliashiv. When in fact it was cobbled together by his grandson. Most of the Teshuvot found in it are truncated from what he originally wrote thus making them hard to understand.<br /><br />3) Dismissing R' Efrati's letter of clarification. Quite simply R' Efrati is and has for quite sometime been R' Eliashiv's right hand man. If he writes, as there is evidence that he did, and D"T even posted the letter <a href="here" rel="nofollow">http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/06/rav-reuven-feinnstein-kiruv-and.html</a>. However Roni wants to claim that this signed letter of R' Efrati is hearsay. The truth that the letter exists, and can be viewed. R' Eliashiv obviously felt the need for clarifications over what was printed in Kovetz Teshuvot, as R' Efrati explains in his letter.<br /><br />4) Roni mistakenly assumes that R' Eliashiv's letter says that it is l'chatchila to encourage a person to convert. I challenge Roni to find the word l'chatchila or encourage anywhere in the text of the Teshuva. Rather he choses to <i><b>LIE</b></i> about the meaning of שיתן אל לבו hoping to mislead people.<br /><br />5) He rejects the straightforward meaning of the text. Especially the words אם דעתו להתגייר. With Roni's current understanding these words do not fit. However if we understand that the text the way R' Efrati clarifies it, these words make perfect sense.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-11151527751753304602009-06-30T06:55:19.180+03:002009-06-30T06:55:19.180+03:00Also his "clarification" did not make it...Also his "clarification" did not make it in the printed book!<br /><br />Which means that even if what you say is true (being that you have achazakah to misundertand what is said) the fact remains that the motziey leor of the sefer did not "hold" of the "clarification" and it reads kipshutoy the way it is written: which he speaks about soemone who is not yet interested to convert and we need to bring him so that he will varouse his heart to want to convert and the shiurim might be a possible reasonable medium that he might arouse his heart through those shiurim!roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33618015975609481102009-06-30T06:46:21.750+03:002009-06-30T06:46:21.750+03:00Dt/MekubAL WRITES: "just added Rav Efrati'...Dt/MekubAL WRITES: "just added Rav Efrati's clarification of Rav Eliashiv's teshuva 3:140.<br /><br />It is obviously referring to somone who is already interested in converting and not someone who needs to be inspired.<br /><br />June 2",<br /><br />TO BORROW YOUR PHRASE: you are embarassing rav efrati by stating that he claims that his "clarification" is the meaning of the tesvhua: it is clear that he is talking about someone who is not interested in conversion, for someone who wants to convert he would not say that the permission rests on the "reasonable possibilities" that he will convert, when THEN THE WORDING WOULD BE "MOST PROABLY" OR "CERTAINLY" HE WOULD CONVERT!<br /><br />it IS CLEAR THAT HE CLAIMS THAT THE ATTENDANCE AT THE SHIURIM IS THE CATALYSTS THAT WILL MIGHT BE A REASONABLE POSSIBILITY THAT HE MIGHT PALCE HIS HEART TO CONVERT!<br /><br />WHY DO YOU EMBARASS RAV EFRATI WITH JUST TWISTED "CLARFICATION" FOR SOMEOTHING SO OPEN THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE "CLARIFICATION"?Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57882471119007421732009-06-30T06:40:40.287+03:002009-06-30T06:40:40.287+03:00while you at it twisting as usual fix the heading ...while you at it twisting as usual fix the heading where you mislead the people by saying that I claim that "Attract non jews to prseltyze is permitted" fix it to stop your LIES, for I never said it is "permitted" in all instances; i'm talking about "intermarried couples"! (What i'm arguing with you is that there is no "issur barur" over it; no formulation in the form of a issur but certainly it is not to be done in general.<br /><br />but what can yyou expect from someone who wages an internet war without learning the issues or the ability to learn the issues?!?!roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71007154533302106362009-06-30T06:30:41.867+03:002009-06-30T06:30:41.867+03:00AND IT COMES ABOUT THROUGH THE BEAUTY OF TORAH AND...AND IT COMES ABOUT THROUGH THE BEAUTY OF TORAH AND IT'S TEACHINGS WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HE DID NOT EXPERINCE UNTIL NOW, WE WANT HIM TO FEEL A NEW EXPERIENCE SO THAT HE WILL DECIDE A NEW IDEA FROM SCRATCH "I WANT TO CONVERT (NOT SOMETHING THAT COMES FROM HIMSELF, BUT FROM OUR CONVEYING TO HIM A MESSAGE THAT WILL ENTICE HIM WITH THE NEW WILL AND HEART TO COVNERT!), THESE ARE DVORIM PSHUTIM; ONLY SOMEONE WHO (TO BORROW THE OTHER STOOGE) WHO DOES NOT KNOW "HAVANAT HANIKRA" AND HAVANAH BICHLAL CAN MAKE THESE ACROBATIC SUMMARSAULTS!<br />======================================<br /><br />Hate to break your bubbles but those girls who you say got a new heart and now see clearly the beauty of Judaism are really doing it for their boyfriends/husbands.<br /><br />You are also naively or stubbornly believe that a person who is dating or marrying non Jewish girl is going to become haredi and live in Lakewood. It is not going to happen.<br /><br />Your best chance is to have them practicing Modern Orthodoxy but hey, you hate them so much and you even revoked the conversion of a woman who wore pants and threaten another woman convert who wanted to be a nurse.<br /><br />I am not sure why people will go to convert with the EJF if they can have more normal and more accepted conversion with the RCA even if it costs more.LL Cool Jewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74495239114535951632009-06-30T06:08:03.922+03:002009-06-30T06:08:03.922+03:00Tropper Said
ROni: How can this chochom not know ...Tropper Said<br /><i><br />ROni: How can this chochom not know how to read? RAv ELyashiv specifically ALLOWS/RECOMMENDS *LECHATCHILA* THAT THE FELLOW SHOULD PARTICIPATE IN SHIURIM! SO THAT HE WILL DECIDE BECUASE OF THE SHIURIM TO CONVERT. HE CALLS THIS "LECHATCHILA" IN THE LEVEL OF *BEDIAVAD*. ONLY SOMEONE WHO DID NOT PASS MESSIVTA IS NOT AWARE THAT SOME CASES ARE *ALREADY* "DIAVAD" SO THAT WE GIVE PERMISSION TO ACT LECHATCHILA BECUAUSE IT REACHED ALREADY THE STATUS OF "DIAVAD". THIS IS WHAT HE WRITES "YESH LIROS BEMATZVOH KEILU BEDIAVAD" <b>THE GUY IS ALREADY INTERMRRIED SO WE SHOULD SEE THIS AS AN "EXPOST FACTO" ANDTHEREFORE PERMIT LECHATCHILA THAT HE ATTEND SHIURIM IN ORDER THAT HE HAVE THE NEW HEART TO CONVERT!</b> </i><br /><br /><br />If not for yeridan hadorot you should be in cherem for advocating ( and misrepresenting r’ Elyashiv) that the diavad in this case creates lechatchila.<br /><br />The next logical step is that guys who are dating gentile girls would not try to convert her and then marry her, they should marry her first and then try to convert her so now the situation is bediavd and you can do everything you want.<br /><br />You should be a rosh yeshiva in Chelem.the Monsey Tzadiknoreply@blogger.com