tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3525773539694895184..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Nachlaot Case: Questions raised regarding conviction of Zalman Cohen Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46611483463269279002014-12-26T15:56:29.510+02:002014-12-26T15:56:29.510+02:00What previous conviction? There was no previous c...What previous conviction? There was no previous conviction. If there was there would be some record of it in the papers or previous court documents. Do a search. The internet is an amazing tool.Tahininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6805615794790602972014-12-26T12:02:47.785+02:002014-12-26T12:02:47.785+02:00As far as I'm concerned, the current discussio...As far as I'm concerned, the current discussion IS about the sentence, NOT about the theories of what occurred.<br /><br />No outsider can know with 100% certainty what really did or didn't happen. Therefore my discussion focuses entirely the integrity of the judicial process.<br /><br />The judge obviously will not reveal that his judgment was colored by a previous conviction. But could it have been an influencing factor?IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4821194977030637422014-12-25T18:41:05.001+02:002014-12-25T18:41:05.001+02:00Reader, you raise some interesting points.
I am re...Reader, you raise some interesting points.<br />I am relying on infomration I have sen previously on this blog. You are saying that Z was "was merely the "life coach" of Ohel Sara Imenu, Sarah Vors't conversion program." merely?<br />So the maximum you are admitting is that Z was connected to the Eisenstein covnersion industry. And since eisenstein's monster was under the halachic tutelage of the Gadol hador, then implied by your statement is a strong negius between the gadol and the rapist. This is not a "conspiracy theory" it also does not detract form the chillul Hashem, especially since you accept that he may have bene guilty of raping the poor girls that Frankenstein was trying to convert (under strict halachic standards). <br />And who exactly appointed this criminal as a "life coach"?<br /><br />Your other point, that one crime doesnt make another is also correct. That is why they do not mention in secular courts the previous criminal record of a defendant, since they presume their innocence. However, as i said before, someitmes the police or authorities know a person committed a crime, but cannot satisfy the strict requirement for <br /><br />a conviction. Since neither of us are supreme court judges, this discussion is not about the sentence, but about various theories of what occurred. the judge may have had more insight tot he case than either you or i do, and thus chose to be strict.<br /><br /><br />In any case, whether he held dayanus or not is irrelevant, since he does not need otbe dayan in order to be a dayan - case in point, R' metzger.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52403351834986885952014-12-25T11:55:43.669+02:002014-12-25T11:55:43.669+02:00"Rabbi Eisenstein, vouched for Zalman Cohen w..."Rabbi Eisenstein, vouched for Zalman Cohen when various accusations were made against him, and was instrumental in securing his early release for his rape conviction"<br /> Yes R Tzadok seems to be privy to a lot of information that simply does not exist anywhere else. Zalman's 'conviction' and jail sentence that he was supposedly released early from is not mentioned in any court documents or any real media outlets. <br /><br />As for the comments, do they really need to be repeated? Especially the comment by Daat Torah in response to one of your comments there.Tahininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69350322006555006272014-12-25T10:41:01.024+02:002014-12-25T10:41:01.024+02:00"Brand" wrote there: "Rabbi Zalman ..."Brand" wrote there: "Rabbi Zalman Cohen was part of rabbi Nachum Eisenstein beis din". <br /><br />That statement is not corroborated in any way. How do we know that? The statement is is also ambiguous. Exactly in what capacity did Zalman serve there? Sectretary? "Dayan"? Janitor?<br /><br />As far as I know, Zalman was merely the "life coach" of Ohel Sara Imenu, Sarah Vors't conversion program. A "life coach" is NOT a "dayan".<br /><br />Neither does Rabbi Tzadok confirm Zalman's "dayanus". He merely claims that on R' Eisenstein's say so, R' Elayashev went out on a limb for Zalman.<br /><br />I'm not saying that Zalman is the biggest saint in the world. He might even have been guilty of the old rape charges, but that still doesn't make him guilty of pedophilia in this DIFFERENT case. Throw the book at him, IF he's guilty. But don't let his previous guilt color your judgement in the this case.<br /><br />The point of my comments are twofold. One, to correct the chilul Hashem raised by Eddie that "a dayan for the Posek hador would be involved in such a crime". I repeat my assertion, that to the best of my knowledge, Zalman was <br />never a "dayan". In fact, I don't think that he even has "semicha".<br /><br />Second, is my belief, is that the legal process in any country should be fair, untainted, and unbiased. <br /><br />If it can be demonstrated that a judge case used different standards for different defendants, that raises the question of the judge's neutrality, and his ability to accurately judge each case on its own merits.<br /><br />In Zalman's case, we see that the two defendants, with very similar circumstances and witnesses, received very different verdicts. This raises a valid question as to whether or not the judge was biased in judging Zalman.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74909006795231709712014-12-25T03:15:16.511+02:002014-12-25T03:15:16.511+02:00Did you mean to respond to Tahini or IsraelReader?...Did you mean to respond to Tahini or IsraelReader? I have no opinion and expressed no opinion on all this conspiracy stuff regarding a relationship between this person and R' Elyashiv.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61680748757868072042014-12-25T01:57:56.827+02:002014-12-25T01:57:56.827+02:00I guess you missed this, and the comments
http://...I guess you missed this, and the comments<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/nachalaot-summary-of-what-has-happened.html<br /><br />"Rabbi Zalman Cohen was part of rabbi Nachum Eisenstein beis din and that<br /> was the reason Rav Amar told the regional batei din to reject all this <br />beit din conversions."<br /><br />It is a problem, since in the brainwash pres that Hareidim read, whenever they mention conversion, they say int he same breathe "the vaad l'inyonei Giur" set up by Gavad R' Kreisworth"<br /><br />This vaad has been passed on to Eisenstein. In the above post, R' Tzadok comments further down the follwoing: "I also know that Rabbi Eliashiv, on the word of Rabbi Eisenstein, vouched for Zalman Cohen when various accusations were made against him, and was instrumental in securing his early release for his rape conviction, insisting then that the man had been framed."<br /><br /><br />R' Tzadok is based in or near Nachlaot and had his finger ont he pulse at the time the story broke out.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52857755482325611822014-12-24T22:25:05.545+02:002014-12-24T22:25:05.545+02:00Did you even bother to read the Tablet article tha...Did you even bother to read the Tablet article that you yourself posted? Apparently not.<br /><br />I recommend that you read Dorothy Rabinowitz's writing on the Amirault case. Your mind might be opened a bit. And guess what -- Amirault is not charedi, nor even Jewish! Still, I sympathize with him. Beyond your imagining, I know.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3244994518354783362014-12-24T22:23:05.658+02:002014-12-24T22:23:05.658+02:00Says you, in your endless demonizing of chareidim....Says you, in your endless demonizing of chareidim. You produce vitriol by the gallon.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67353762641489911282014-12-24T20:47:48.524+02:002014-12-24T20:47:48.524+02:00the parents of many kids were making the reports t...the parents of many kids were making the reports to the authorities , were they all making up false accusations?<br /><br />http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/an-unholy-mess-in-the-holy-city-1.387591Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29498401316611203412014-12-24T20:29:11.220+02:002014-12-24T20:29:11.220+02:00we all have negius, I would be a fool to deny that...we all have negius, I would be a fool to deny that i have "interests"Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31113425423059886622014-12-24T20:26:42.979+02:002014-12-24T20:26:42.979+02:00if the case was some chiloni shmendrick, you would...if the case was some chiloni shmendrick, you wouldn't give 2 hoots about him.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-11614385264352923552014-12-24T18:15:01.760+02:002014-12-24T18:15:01.760+02:00I guess Rabbi Elyashiv must have censored any arti...I guess Rabbi Elyashiv must have censored any articles by main media news and destroyed any record about ZC's previous conviction for rape since no such articles exist. This would have been a big story. - Rabbi on conversion BD convicted of raping potential converts. ZC on a conversion BD? You are dreaming.Tahininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72407536417642817912014-12-24T17:15:15.537+02:002014-12-24T17:15:15.537+02:00Most people get "fussed" when they are a...Most people get "fussed" when they are accused of bad behavior and they believe the accusations to be unfounded. So what?kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-36644973037605436702014-12-24T17:14:22.735+02:002014-12-24T17:14:22.735+02:00You're the one with endless negius. You're...You're the one with endless negius. You're anti-charedi bias bleeds from every word you write.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38643388159249963302014-12-24T17:13:48.164+02:002014-12-24T17:13:48.164+02:00Your hatred blinds you.Your hatred blinds you.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33406148910704024932014-12-24T16:31:55.577+02:002014-12-24T16:31:55.577+02:00Hareidi on hareidi crime, btw. It is like when, ...Hareidi on hareidi crime, btw. It is like when, lehavdil, there are arab on arab crimes, or black on black, and the outside world is not too fussed. In fact, Muslims get very offended when you tell them about this, and so do hareidim.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28315547700810015622014-12-24T16:18:19.871+02:002014-12-24T16:18:19.871+02:00"...that someone who was a "dayan" ..."...that someone who was a "dayan" for the Posek hador would be involved in such a crime".<br /><br />Where are you getting your information from? To the best of my knowledge, Zalman was never a "dayan". I don't think that he even has "semicha"!IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79875106896718741122014-12-24T14:30:36.482+02:002014-12-24T14:30:36.482+02:00"Nonsense" - why? ZC was apparently on ..."Nonsense" - why? ZC was apparently on a covnersion BD from the previous Posek hador. he was also involved in raping potential converts, and was in prison for this. R' Elyahsiv got him released from prison. There is your negios.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62420259975753947692014-12-24T14:28:47.227+02:002014-12-24T14:28:47.227+02:00The Tablet article does not say it is a tale - it ...The Tablet article does not say it is a tale - it says that the evidence is problematic. There are often cases in criminal law where the police know that somebody committed a crime, but their evidence isn't strong enough to stand up in a court. Because the secular courts have a presumption of innocence. <br /><br />The community know that things have gone on. they are not savvy and do nto know about forensic evidence, psychology etc, they have no tvs or computers, and do nto have psychologists close at hand. since the investigation was retrospective, there was little forensic evidence available.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18203865400919199732014-12-24T05:03:40.861+02:002014-12-24T05:03:40.861+02:00Eddie, After reading the update to the article you...Eddie, After reading the update to the article you posted a link to, I would certainly question the truth of the witness statements (children's testimonies) <br />Also, I don't understand your objections to this post. It seems to me that if what is said is true, then there is valid reasons to question the verdict in this case.<br /><br />"The acts reported by the children, nearly all between the ages of 3 and 9, are incredibly horrific and often very bizarre. Virtually none of the allegations involve only one molester and one victim; the children have consistently claimed multiple offenders and multiple victims. There are reports of orgies involving as many as 20 adults and more than a dozen children. There were, allegedly, frequent raping and forced sodomy of children as young as 2 years old. The children claim that various objects—including large branches, semi-automatic rifles, screwdrivers, and other carpenter’s tools—were forcibly stuck up their anuses and other orifices; that knives were held to their throats; that they were told that if they didn’t voluntarily return to be raped, they would be “chopped up into little pieces,” or that their entire families would be murdered. They claim that they were shown, by way of threat, the guns that would be used for this purpose and told that cameras had been installed in their homes to ascertain their silence. The children claim that they were, on various occasions, bound up and beaten, held on top of open flames, lashed with sticks, burned with chemicals, given soft drinks spiked with hallucinogens, and injected with drugs.<br /><br />The majority of the allegations include reports of video-recording and photography, and the children say they were forced to watch pornographic movies and violent sexual encounters between their abusers. Some children say they were abducted at night from their homes, viciously abused, and returned to their beds. Others say they were abducted from school and then returned. Babysitters were said to be threatened with severe physical punishment or death unless they brought the children in their care to the pedophiles. There are reports of witches, magic doors, secret basements, and large dogs used to intimidate the children. Many allegations include elements of ritual and Christian abuse, including forced prostration and benedictions, sexual acts involving massive iron crosses, and various other forms of foreign worship. Some children say they were taken to a nearby church, where they were abused by priests, as well as other undercover Christians."Tahininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68675033907123878402014-12-24T03:23:40.094+02:002014-12-24T03:23:40.094+02:00In fact, the Israel Hayom article you link to incl...In fact, the Israel Hayom article you link to includes a link to Tablet Magazine, which casts considerable doubt on the whole tale. (And before you start again with your hareidi-coverup mantra, be aware that Tablet is not hareidi.)<br /><br />http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/117839/panic-in-jerusalemkishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87700491475000484932014-12-24T02:07:18.003+02:002014-12-24T02:07:18.003+02:00here is a translation of a report in Israel Hayom
...here is a translation of a report in Israel Hayom<br />http://www.amotherinisrael.com/nachalaot-pedophilia-ring/<br /><br />The anonymous post is simply trying to deny that any wrongdoing has taken place. We have seen in numerous cases how the hareidi leadership try to cover up crimes committed by their own fold. Are all the witness statements in the report also false , and nothing actually took place? Cover ups take place all the time, hence Nochum Rosenberg is always being attacked for blowing the whistle.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-40032927890839407992014-12-24T01:47:03.376+02:002014-12-24T01:47:03.376+02:00And those who hate hareidim are no less ratonal th...And those who hate hareidim are no less ratonal themselves, and cannot conceive of a circumstance in which a hareidi accused of a crime might actually be innocent.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82812590342399667572014-12-24T01:45:47.671+02:002014-12-24T01:45:47.671+02:00"the anonymous writer wishes to exact strict ..."the anonymous writer wishes to exact strict standards of consistency from children who suffered serious abuse."<br /><br />That's precisely the question: Did they suffer serious abuse or not?<br /><br />" The Justice system that brougth the prosecution would be aware of the<br /> fact that this is not the same kind of case as might be for witnesses <br />to robbery"<br /><br />Your blind faith in the justice system is touching, if misplaced.<br /><br />"a hareidi Rabbinic bet din would most likely be possul, because of negios."<br /><br />Nonsense.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.com