tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post326035065580988828..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Conversion:Supreme Court vs. RabbinateDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-356545539412936112010-08-09T21:20:20.042+03:002010-08-09T21:20:20.042+03:00And yet, Ben Torah, says exactly what I did -- thi...And yet, Ben Torah, says exactly what I did -- this is a shift from the "status quo" Orthodox ownership of geirus to specifically the rabbanut being in control.<br /><br />That step wasn't in Rotem's original proposal -- it was added in order to get the chareidi vote. It is a proposal not only approved by UTJ, but DEMANDED by them. See for example <a href="http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=181973" rel="nofollow">this post mortem</a>.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=182487" rel="nofollow">UTJ</a> objected to the bill being frozen out of the current Kenesset session.<br /><br />A <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/gulf-remains-between-parties-on-proposed-knesset-conversion-bill-1.264502" rel="nofollow">news story</a> covering the forcing of the rabbanut's control into the original bill. Lemaaseh, UTJ felt locked out, therefore they ended up getting on board late. But they did end up backing the bill.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37339578435465184972010-08-09T20:55:11.464+03:002010-08-09T20:55:11.464+03:00The following article by R. Avi Shafran, of Agudah...The following article by R. Avi Shafran, of Agudah<br /><br />http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2010/08/06/abuse-of-power/<br /><br />with his opening observation:<br /><br /><i>"The Jewish world reportedly has six months before the Rotem Bill (or some facsimile thereof) returns to the Knesset for <b>further consideration.</b> That should allow us all to more leisurely – and hopefully more reasonably – not only assess the bill’s strengths and weaknesses <b>but ponder a troubling issue peripheral to the legislation</b>, but which was engendered by it.<br /><br />The bill’s essential aim is to allow non-Jewish Israelis a greater choice of religious courts than presently. The bill, further, formalized the decades-old religious status quo placement of conversion in Israel under the auspices of the country’s official Chief Rabbinate.</i><br /><br />bears out the problem discussed by several posters above.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26679805217412241672010-08-08T08:10:36.193+03:002010-08-08T08:10:36.193+03:00Hi Micha,
Other than your assertions to that effe...Hi Micha,<br /><br />Other than your assertions to that effect, I have nowhere seen UTJ decided as a party to support this bill. Since it doesn't make sense that they would vote for it, can you please cite/link to your source - should you have any other than an assumption?NYCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33816588986792642542010-08-06T20:56:00.263+03:002010-08-06T20:56:00.263+03:00Wild. They say they'll vote for it. I point yo...Wild. They say they'll vote for it. I point you to the specific sections of the bill that say the opposite or your claim, but it doesn't make a difference -- the chareidi parties are against because the bill promotes iffy or even non-halachic conversions.<br /><br />Since there is no way to argue if facts don't matter, I won't.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82291563244876723332010-08-06T03:40:56.444+03:002010-08-06T03:40:56.444+03:00Agree with Samuel Roth and Dan. This is a band bil...Agree with Samuel Roth and Dan. This is a band bill for Torah Judaism and authentic geirus.<br /><br />UTJ (or even Agudah/Degel individually) does not support this bill as a party.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90000633130351030302010-08-03T22:09:08.674+03:002010-08-03T22:09:08.674+03:00What a thick irony here!
The head of reform movem...What a thick irony here!<br /><br />The head of reform movement bemoans the throwing out of 30 years of legal decisions! <br /><br />How about when the reform came and threw out about 2000 years of legal decisions?<br /><br />Only difference is, these so-called "legal decisions" of the reform movement are only "legal" decisions in their own fantasy world because they exist OUTSIDE the legal system of Judaism as their movement "threw off the yoke" of the Talmud. So I have a hard time accepting the idea of calling reform decisions "legal" decisions. What legal system? Reform-worship?Student Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55189949837267603142010-08-03T02:39:17.552+03:002010-08-03T02:39:17.552+03:00I mean the locally elected CR's, not the dayan...I mean the locally elected CR's, not the dayanim you are referring to.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41205661718607439372010-08-03T02:30:52.677+03:002010-08-03T02:30:52.677+03:00Micha, would you be so kind to show me your source...Micha, would you be so kind to show me your source that UTJ has agreed to vote for this bill.<br /><br />Also, unless I overlooked it, the bill doesn't grant the national CR the power to fire the locally elected CR's (who become nationally empowered under the legislation).Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35131792968422796382010-08-03T00:42:21.312+03:002010-08-03T00:42:21.312+03:00Dan,
1- They promised to vote for the bill. That&...Dan,<br /><br />1- They promised to vote for the bill. That's more than "anything R doesn't like..." The whole point of the last-minute change was to secure those votes.<br /><br />2- The bill explicitly says, and I pointed you to where already, that it gives the National CR the power to fire dayanim who do not conform to their conversion standards. So why are you replying with "I don't think"? Look it up yourself!<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15298770269773470842010-08-02T23:19:14.353+03:002010-08-02T23:19:14.353+03:00Micha, whilst you are correct about the Shas suppo...Micha, whilst you are correct about the Shas support, I believe not about Agudah and Degel. Whilst I saw a quote of an individual MK from Degel saying to the effect, "hey, if the Reform are against it I guess we should be for it", neither Agudah nor Degel have taken a position on the bill.<br /><br />So I believe the concerns expressed are indeed valid. Additionally, local rabbanut chief rabbis are locally elected. I dont think national rabbanut can fire the local chief rabbis who will be nationally empowered under this legislation. And even if they could, I dont think it would be tenable to do so even if they utilize looser standards of conversions.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17135747995435062312010-08-02T12:39:29.588+03:002010-08-02T12:39:29.588+03:00As I already noted, Shas, Degel haTorah and Agudah...As I already noted, Shas, Degel haTorah and Agudah (the latter two, through the UTJ) all back this new bill. So why do you think its results would be nefarious?<br /><br />Geirus standards, as I also already noted, would be set at a national level, and judges that don't conform to it can be fired by the national rabbanut.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70345323835450546642010-08-02T05:57:50.622+03:002010-08-02T05:57:50.622+03:00So effectively whichever rabbanut rabbi in the sta...So effectively whichever rabbanut rabbi in the state has the lowest common denominator standards to convert, will now be able to offer that "lowest" standard throughout the state. And obviously any potential convert throughout the state will be able to utilize those rabbis conversion services, where previously it would not have been available to them, as they were subject to a more demanding standard of conversion (which many insist is the true halachic minimum) insisted upon by the their local rabbanut.Samuel Rothnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28116584660994261912010-08-02T05:48:45.887+03:002010-08-02T05:48:45.887+03:00Reb Micha,
Nevertheless, all currently existing r...Reb Micha,<br /><br />Nevertheless, all currently existing rabbanut rabbis will become empowered under this proposed legislation to initiate conversions of anyone throughout the state, whereas they are currently limited to persons within their jurisdictions.<br /><br />The net effect of this change is that, say, someone like Rabbi Riskin who is a rabbanut rabbi with conversion standards that may be considered unacceptable to many, but is currently limited to officiating conversions in Efrat whereas under the new law - should it come into force - would be able to apply his looser standards to anyone in the state, including those who otherwise would have been subject to a "higher" standard required of potential converts.Samuel Rothnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60771384417158622982010-08-01T15:16:15.839+03:002010-08-01T15:16:15.839+03:00RSR:
To answer both your questions...
See the bi...RSR:<br /><br />To answer both your questions...<br /><br />See <a href="http://www.knesset.gov.il/Laws/Data/BillKnesset/342/342.pdf" rel="nofollow">the bill</a>, see which section of the law is being amended, and change 2, item b on the list. The national rabbanut has control of who can serve as dayan. Actually, it's all over the bill, as I wrote, the assumption that the rabbanut owns conversion standards is the bill's core point.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12432370647923963872010-08-01T08:08:42.562+03:002010-08-01T08:08:42.562+03:00What part of the bill "raises the floor"...What part of the bill "raises the floor" and how does it do so?Samuel Rothnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90848907520957605172010-08-01T07:08:00.563+03:002010-08-01T07:08:00.563+03:00Micha -
Did you read the Rotem Bill?Micha -<br /><br />Did you read the Rotem Bill?Samuel Rothnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14658274873972380902010-08-01T05:42:23.523+03:002010-08-01T05:42:23.523+03:00But Dan... the core of the bill is to raise the fl...But Dan... the core of the bill is to raise the floor on what the lowest acceptable standard is -- defined by the chareidi-dominated rabbanut.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91205832433536519932010-07-30T03:58:36.285+03:002010-07-30T03:58:36.285+03:00micha: you didn't see the part of the rotem bi...micha: you didn't see the part of the rotem bill that allows the russians to use the most lenient rabbi i israel who is most willing to convert them without much hassle or halachic conditions required?<br /><br />(currently they must use the rabbi of their municipality, not find the easiest, least halachic, one. this is why lieberman's russian party proposed this legislation.)Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57301178842199518682010-07-29T03:42:30.425+03:002010-07-29T03:42:30.425+03:00Jersey Girl has a blog1? address?Jersey Girl has a blog1? address?Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20888373051140933652010-07-29T01:44:03.121+03:002010-07-29T01:44:03.121+03:00"Muammar al-Gaddafi is a Jew because his moth..."Muammar al-Gaddafi is a Jew because his mother was born Jewish."<br /><br />Is this a new version of the claims you made some months ago, i.e. that the moroccan kings are jewish? When you stated that on your blog, I did some research on the subject and came to the conclusion that it was wrong. (The moroccan kings might have had jewish wives, but they were not the mothers of the subsequent kings)...<br /><br />So were do you take your claim from, as far as ghadaffi is concerned.uiiiiinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29803455173435726872010-07-29T00:05:38.053+03:002010-07-29T00:05:38.053+03:00I didn't need 2 versions of the response, 4 ti...I didn't need 2 versions of the response, 4 times to get your point. :)<br /><br />I believe your analysis of the bill to be wrong. The bill will allow any sheigitz to shop around to any rabbanut rabbi in any municipality in Israel -- i.e. they can all shop their "conversion" by the most lax "rabbi" who is the first to stamp is rabbunut seal of their conversion certificate, regardless of the so-called "convert"'s lack of commitment to keep Shabbos or Kashrus.<br /><br />That is why Avigdor Lieberman's anti-religious Yisroel Betanyu party proposed this legislation in the Kenneset.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28935773104823362552010-07-28T23:47:24.201+03:002010-07-28T23:47:24.201+03:00Risking your life for the Jewish
community does n...Risking your life for the Jewish <br />community does not confer halachic Jewish status. <br /><br />Muammar al-Gaddafi is a Jew because his mother was born Jewish. <br /><br />Raoul Wallenberg was a Gentile because his mother was not born Jewish. <br /><br />There is no merit system in deciding upon "who is a Jew". A person is either born Jewish or they can become a Ger/Giyoret Tzeddek/et k'halacha. And IDF service does not replace the acceptance of the yoke of Torah and Mitzvot for a Ger Tzedek.Jersey Girlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43434044971249573522010-07-28T23:36:13.361+03:002010-07-28T23:36:13.361+03:00Sorry, I was trying to comment on their silence, a...Sorry, I was trying to comment on their silence, and moreso that not only should the RCA be speaking up -- they should be doing so as loudly as the non-O movements. In fact, since Religious Zionism was on the radar of those who shaped this bill whereas Reform and Conservative are not (having insufficient population to have political power in Israel), it is more directly on attack on what RCA stands for.<br /><br />If that failed to come across in my previous comment, it just means I need to go back to English Composition 101.<br /><br />UTJ voiced its disappointment that the bill was not read in this session of Keneset. MK Uri Maklev (of the Degel haTorah wing of UTJ) said it was more about needing to push back at Reform than actually being satisfied with the proposed bill as it stands. But they do support the bill.<br /><br />As modified, the bill gives control to the increasingly chareidi Rabbanut, and the major Chareidi parties support it.<br /><br />As for the R' Druckman connection... Conversion in Israel was always under an Orthodox court. Until a couple of years ago, that beis din was run by the state Conversion Authority, and was under R' Druckman, a major figure in the dati leumi / NRP / Mizrachi world.<br /><br />Then, the chareidi rabbanim on the Rabbanut of Ashdod's beis din not only questioned one of their conversions, but said the standards were so non-halachic, the dayanim weren't shomerei Torah umitzvos. Thus there were no dayanim, no court, and the conversion ritual was thus missing a key piece for valid geirus -- for every convert R' Druckman's beis din ever made.<br /><br />Leaving many gerim in doubt as to whether or not they would be considered Jews.<br /><br />This doubt is the driving force behind Yisrael Betenu's bill. They want to know that a conversion will be considered valid by all, and no doubts raised years later.<br /><br />This *eliminates* the alleged conversion of Russians who have no plans to ever keep a Shabbos. It is designed as part of a package that would provide security for those still willing to undergo geirus for real. More batei dinim performing conversion, but the<br />rules of the batei dinim all being under the Rabbanut, where fewer and fewer datiim leumiim will have say.<br /><br />Side note: I cover my challah at the Shabbos table, in part out of a sense of gratitude. Moshe Rabbeinu also was expected to express gratitude toward the sea that saved him as an infant, and the sand into which he hid the Egptian taskmaster's body. Makkos that afflicted sea and sand were initiated by Aharon, not Moshe.<br /><br />That's the level of hakaras hatov we have for inanimate obects, who provide benefit for us without having any say in the matter.<br /><br />I am therefore troubled by someone referring to people who risk their lives for a primarily Jewish community as "shkotzim". I see you have Uncle Sam as your picture on blogger.com's profile. Can I take that to mean you are here in the US with me, not risking our own or our sons' lives for the safety of other Jews? So how can you belittle those who do -- regardless of what negative spin you might wish to place on their motives?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13030696596269524972010-07-28T23:35:44.602+03:002010-07-28T23:35:44.602+03:00Sorry, I was trying to comment on their silence, a...Sorry, I was trying to comment on their silence, and moreso that not only should the RCA be speaking up -- they should be doing so as loudly as the non-O movements. In fact, since Religious Zionism was on the radar of those who shaped this bill whereas Reform and Conservative are not (having insufficient population to have political power in Israel), it is more directly on attack on what RCA stands for.<br /><br />If that failed to come across in my previous comment, it just means I need to go back to English Composition 101.<br /><br />UTJ voiced its disappointment that the bill was not read in this session of Keneset. MK Uri Maklev (of the Degel haTorah wing of UTJ) said it was more about needing to push back at Reform than actually being satisfied with the proposed bill as it stands. But they do support the bill.<br /><br />As modified, the bill gives control to the increasingly chareidi Rabbanut, and the major Chareidi parties support it.<br /><br />As for the R' Druckman connection... Conversion in Israel was always under an Orthodox court. Until a couple of years ago, that beis din was run by the state Conversion Authority, and was under R' Druckman, a major figure in the dati leumi / NRP / Mizrachi world.<br /><br />Then, the chareidi rabbanim on the Rabbanut of Ashdod's beis din not only questioned one of their conversions, but said the standards were so non-halachic, the dayanim weren't shomerei Torah umitzvos. Thus there were no dayanim, no court, and the conversion ritual was thus missing a key piece for valid geirus -- for every convert R' Druckman's beis din ever made.<br /><br />Leaving many gerim in doubt as to whether or not they would be considered Jews.<br /><br />This doubt is the driving force behind Yisrael Betenu's bill. They want to know that a conversion will be considered valid by all, and no doubts raised years later.<br /><br />This *eliminates* the alleged conversion of Russians who have no plans to ever keep a Shabbos. It is designed as part of a package that would provide security for those still willing to undergo geirus for real. More batei dinim performing conversion, but the<br />rules of the batei dinim all being under the Rabbanut, where fewer and fewer datiim leumiim will have say.<br /><br />Side note: I cover my challah at the Shabbos table, in part out of a sense of gratitude. Moshe Rabbeinu also was expected to express gratitude toward the sea that saved him as an infant, and the sand into which he hid the Egptian taskmaster's body. Makkos that afflicted sea and sand were initiated by Aharon, not Moshe.<br /><br />That's the level of hakaras hatov we have for inanimate obects, who provide benefit for us without having any say in the matter.<br /><br />I am therefore troubled by someone referring to people who risk their lives for a primarily Jewish community as "shkotzim". I see you have Uncle Sam as your picture on blogger.com's profile. Can I take that to mean you are here in the US with me, not risking our own or our sons' lives for the safety of other Jews? So how can you belittle those who do -- regardless of what negative spin you might wish to place on their motives?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88452266537261547912010-07-28T23:35:14.020+03:002010-07-28T23:35:14.020+03:00Sorry, I was trying to comment on their silence, a...Sorry, I was trying to comment on their silence, and moreso that not only should the RCA be speaking up -- they should be doing so as loudly as the non-O movements. In fact, since Religious Zionism was on the radar of those who shaped this bill whereas Reform and Conservative are not (having insufficient population to have political power in Israel), it is more directly on attack on what RCA stands for.<br /><br />If that failed to come across in my previous comment, it just means I need to go back to English Composition 101.<br /><br />UTJ voiced its disappointment that the bill was not read in this session of Keneset. MK Uri Maklev (of the Degel haTorah wing of UTJ) said it was more about needing to push back at Reform than actually being satisfied with the proposed bill as it stands. But they do support the bill.<br /><br />As modified, the bill gives control to the increasingly chareidi Rabbanut, and the major Chareidi parties support it.<br /><br />As for the R' Druckman connection... Conversion in Israel was always under an Orthodox court. Until a couple of years ago, that beis din was run by the state Conversion Authority, and was under R' Druckman, a major figure in the dati leumi / NRP / Mizrachi world.<br /><br />Then, the chareidi rabbanim on the Rabbanut of Ashdod's beis din not only questioned one of their conversions, but said the standards were so non-halachic, the dayanim weren't shomerei Torah umitzvos. Thus there were no dayanim, no court, and the conversion ritual was thus missing a key piece for valid geirus -- for every convert R' Druckman's beis din ever made.<br /><br />Leaving many gerim in doubt as to whether or not they would be considered Jews.<br /><br />This doubt is the driving force behind Yisrael Betenu's bill. They want to know that a conversion will be considered valid by all, and no doubts raised years later.<br /><br />This *eliminates* the alleged conversion of Russians who have no plans to ever keep a Shabbos. It is designed as part of a package that would provide security for those still willing to undergo geirus for real. More batei dinim performing conversion, but the<br />rules of the batei dinim all being under the Rabbanut, where fewer and fewer datiim leumiim will have say.<br /><br />Side note: I cover my challah at the Shabbos table, in part out of a sense of gratitude. Moshe Rabbeinu also was expected to express gratitude toward the sea that saved him as an infant, and the sand into which he hid the Egptian taskmaster's body. Makkos that afflicted sea and sand were initiated by Aharon, not Moshe.<br /><br />That's the level of hakaras hatov we have for inanimate obects, who provide benefit for us without having any say in the matter.<br /><br />I am therefore troubled by someone referring to people who risk their lives for a primarily Jewish community as "shkotzim". I see you have Uncle Sam as your picture on blogger.com's profile. Can I take that to mean you are here in the US with me, not risking our own or our sons' lives for the safety of other Jews? So how can you belittle those who do -- regardless of what negative spin you might wish to place on their motives?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.com