tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3077226989655580336..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Testimony of minor is not to determine guilt but only to protect victims - Rav Dovid CohenDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12065780875161100562013-09-04T01:17:56.751+03:002013-09-04T01:17:56.751+03:00Meir - you have good questions but please go ask y...Meir - you have good questions but please go ask your local rabbi. I really don't have time.<br /><br />The Aguda claimed they were following the view of Rav Eliashiv.<br /><br /> They don't say that the Rav has the resources. They don't say that the rav is going to posken. As Rav Sternbuch told me this is so the world should not be hefker. He also said it is to provide a more objective perspective. <br /><br />Rav Silman doesn't say to kill every sofek rodef. The question is the perceived urgency of the matter.<br /><br />Regarding warning it depends on the case. In general if you warn a pedophile it is not going to stop him. If a person is reckless driver a warning might get him to stop. Even so if a warning is not possible or might place others in danger it is better not to warn.<br /><br />No I don't agree that firing is an alternative to going to the police. A teacher who abused students is not going to stop just because he got fired. He will find another job <br /><br />Regarding a girl over 12 I would call the police. This is a case of stopping a guy from sin and protecting others from being messed up. He is a community problem Rambam(Chovel u'mazik 8:11) Chasam Sofer Gittin 7a.<br /><br />If a guy was handing out Jews of Jesus literature or persuading teenagers girls to run away from home and marry goyim - would you call the police?<br /><br />According to Rav Wosner it would seem to be a mitzva. The only hidur is indicated by the Maharam Shick that informing should not be done be gedolim. In fact if the person doesn't inform it is a chilul hashem when this is discovered.<br /><br />yes one can become a doctor. This is discussed in Nishmas Avraham regarding the issue of a doctor informing the police about abusive parents where the children my be taken away and given to non-relgious foster parents. Rav Moshe Feinstein also mentions a similar case. Can one become an accountant if it will require you to inform to government of irregularilities. He says yes.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-97177056528845412013-09-04T00:24:55.898+03:002013-09-04T00:24:55.898+03:00'he was referring to cases where it wasn't...'he was referring to cases where it wasn't known clearly that abuse was taking place.'<br /><br />so when agudah attempted to put a gatekeeper in place before going to police. was this done in accordance with the view of rav elyashev as agudah was not talking about a case of definite abuse<br /><br />when you say beis din do not have the resources to investigate to the level of certainty. is this contrary to the view of rav elyashev and lehavdil r. silman who say in case of doubt one must go to a rav. ?<br /><br />if according to rabbi silman a sofek rodef can be killed why does r. silman reqiure a gatekeeper.?<br /><br />even if you are certain he is guilty. if a first offence do you have to warn him ?<br /><br />do you agree with rabbi silman that if you can solve the problem by firing him for working in a mosad you cannot go to police?<br /><br />what is your opinion if the abused girl is over 12? and 'consents ' may one go to police.<br /><br />'But since he didn't escape - as was suggested to him in the gemora - then his staying indicates he had a heter and so do we.'<br /><br />is it a heter or mitzvah to inform when mandated. is there a hidur to resign from ones job or go to a different jurisdiction.<br /><br />rabbi shimon did not volunteer for his job. is one allowed to become a doctor knowing one is obligated to informmeirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30614595205045332562013-09-03T14:47:58.209+03:002013-09-03T14:47:58.209+03:00he was referring to cases where it wasn't know...he was referring to cases where it wasn't known clearly that abuse was taking place.<br /><br />According to Rav Silman anyone who can kill a rodef can kill a sofek rodef. the victim or one of his relatives. Others have to make sure that there is no gentler method of stopping the assailant<br /><br />If you are talking about a one time event than your alternative might be viable. But since he didn't escape - as was suggested to him in the gemora - then his staying indicates he had a heter and so do we.<br /><br />A doctor or teacher does not have to give up his/her employment to avoid being covered by mandated reporting. In New Jersey and other places everyone is included - but there is no requirement that everyone in Lakewood needs to move to New YorkDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85116733064279579632013-09-03T12:58:21.066+03:002013-09-03T12:58:21.066+03:00'A person does not have a legal justification ...'A person does not have a legal justification for ignoring mandated reporting laws by saying that his rabbi said not to report it.'<br />.................................................<br />so what were the circumstances that rav elyashev says someone who suspects abuse must go to the rabonnim first ?<br /><br />who is allowed the kill a sofek rodef. anybody or only the sofek nirdaf ?<br /><br />when rabbi elozer ben rabbi shimon handed over robbers to be executed. Why can you not say his justification was he had no choice because he was forced by the government, (oness rachmanei patray)rather than government coercion creates a halachk obligation.<br /><br /><br />meirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83147433945138696002013-08-28T21:38:15.060+03:002013-08-28T21:38:15.060+03:00Rabbi Dovid Cohen allows any woman to go to Arkous...Rabbi Dovid Cohen allows any woman to go to Arkous and Get a Restraining order except when it comes to his children. I once asked him in regards to his own children if he would allow a woman to get a restraining order against one of his sons. He got all angry and Flustered and startde Yelling AT Me and Calling me a Mechutzef Telling me his sons would never do anything that would Warrent a Restrining orderShianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17101541520769641852013-08-28T01:06:44.950+03:002013-08-28T01:06:44.950+03:00"why is it that no rabbi wanted the job. was ..."why is it that no rabbi wanted the job. was it fear of social opprobrium of being called a moser or did he not want to break the law?"<br /><br />My understanding is they either didn't want to break the law or be open to civil law suits - or both. the Lakewood beis din dissolved itself when they were threatened by a $10 million lawsuit by some they told that he needed to stop teaching.<br /><br />"so aguda when calling for a gatekeeper were violating halachah ? is this a consensus view. (that it is a violation of halachah )"<br /><br />A person does not have a legal justification for ignoring mandated reporting laws by saying that his rabbi said not to report it. I think most rabbis think that the mandated laws are not taken seriously. NYS issued a statement a year ago against gatekeepers. A doctor could lose his license. Penalties and conditions vary between states. Mandated reporting is based on BM 83 which Rav Moshe and others say is binding.<br /><br />Therapy does not have a high success rate with peophiles. Beis din typically has no mechanism for enforcement or sanctions for non compliance. We saw in the Kolko case he simply stopped going to therapy and beis din did nothing. Samething happend with the Colmer case.<br /><br />So yes if therapy works - especially chemical castration - then it should be part of a program for dealing with abuse. The problem is if beis din insists on handling the matter without coordination with the police or child welfare officials.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77024208234830414652013-08-28T00:38:36.978+03:002013-08-28T00:38:36.978+03:00'yes the search engine works. '
I could n...'yes the search engine works. '<br /><br />I could not get it ot work in firefox. with ie is it is ok<br /><br /><br />'Meir I understand that you are not arrogant but you need to be careful with how you word your comments which certaintly indicate that you don't think I have thought about some obvious points or have elementary knowledge about the topic.'<br /><br />read it again. you are right. my apologies.<br /><br />' Similarly the Aguda' pronouncement that one go to a rabbi before reporting a crime - a year later they still were unable to produce a list a rabbis to go to.'<br /><br />why is it that no rabbi wanted the job. was it fear of social opprobrium of being called a moser or did he not want to break the law?<br /><br />'<br />The beis din as gatekeeper is simply against the law of mandated reporting - which is binding according to halacha.'<br /><br />so aguda when calling for a gatekeeper were violating halachah ? is this a consensus view. (that it is a violation of halachah )<br /><br /><br />'The beis din's conclusion was that Kolko should receive therapy as not an intelligent verdict.'<br /><br />if therapy prevents further abuse and there is proper follow up and enforcement why is it not intelligent.meirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39756569608775502462013-08-27T14:48:24.825+03:002013-08-27T14:48:24.825+03:00yes the search engine works. and FAQ is a good ide...yes the search engine works. and FAQ is a good idea - just don't have the time to do it.<br /><br />Meir I understand that you are not arrogant but you need to be careful with how you word your comments which certaintly indicate that you don't think I have thought about some obvious points or have elementary knowledge about the topic.<br /><br />The issue of a parallel justice system through a beis din with experts doesn't exist anymore and it provided no protection for the father of the victim that was driven out of town. It has no power to force testiony, it has no competence to investigate witnesses. The Lakewood beis din's use of a social worker to interrogate the molester was of no help. The beis din's conclusion was that Kolko should receive therapy as not an intelligent verdict. Besides when Koko stopped therapy on his own initiative the beis din did nothing. The existence of this parallel justice system dragged the case out for 6 years. Caused irreversible damage to innocent people, exposed the community to a child molester and just created a disgusting chilul hashem.<br /><br />I am saying that the Lakewood beis din did not protect the children, did not protect the innocent and therefore was against the halacha which doesn't require a beis din but does require the community protect the children and the innocent. the beis din was primarily to protect the name of the community and not to protect the children or the innocent. <br /><br />Similarly the Aguda' pronouncement that one go to a rabbi before reporting a crime - a year later they still were unable to produce a list a rabbis to go to.<br /><br />The beis din as gatekeeper is simply against the law of mandated reporting - which is binding according to halacha.<br /><br />See my post http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/07/lakewood-child-abuse-must-be-handled-by.html<br /><br />A better model than a paralell justice system is to have rabbis working together with the police and secular justice. Such a model exists in various communities.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17051318766546202552013-08-27T13:16:02.048+03:002013-08-27T13:16:02.048+03:00does your search facility work? can you make an ea...does your search facility work? can you make an easily searchable faq 15 most common questions on abuse vs mesirah<br /><br />"Meir I realize you think I haven't thought about these issues - but you are wrong. " <br /><br />I am not so arrogant. just trying to understand.<br /><br />'You want to have 3 rabbi's who have no knowledge about abuse conduct a trial? '<br /><br />what is the problem with 3 rabbis who have no knowledge about abuse but who do have access to an expert on abuse conduct a prior investigation. would it not solve the problem of the wrongly accused facing ruin.<br /><br />are you saying r. matisyahu's lakewood beit din was against the halacha ?meirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57027447215958603592013-08-27T01:50:25.408+03:002013-08-27T01:50:25.408+03:00Meir I have commented many times on this. Do a sea...Meir I have commented many times on this. Do a search in the archives - or read volume II of Child and Domestic Abuse. It would be helpful if you not only read the sources but see how the halacha is. Let me just quote one source - the Maharam Shick- who was dealing with the issue of reporting a woman to the police who was suspected of poisoning her husband. He says that the criticims were only directed to him because he was a gadol and he should have let a lesser person arrest the criminals.<br /><br />Maharam Shick (C.M. 50): [In the case of someone’s brother who had died suddenly and his sister in law is suspected of poisoning her husband. Based on Bava Metzia (83b) regarding R’ Eliezer catching Jewish robbers for the Roman the halacha would allow reporting her to the police.]. While that is the halacha, nevertheless that gemora itself indicates that it is inappropriate for gedolim to be the ones to report the transgressor to the secular authorities. ... Consequently while one should not protest against those who follow the straight halacha and report the criminal to the authorities - which has many poskim to rely on - nevertheless the gedolim should not get involved in reporting these crimes but rather should be passive. This is as we saw with Shimon ben Shetach who did not have proper evidence that someone was a murderer - even though it was obvious – and therefore he did nothing. Also look at Sheilas Yaavetz (2:9)…Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57895657360021757092013-08-27T01:36:20.832+03:002013-08-27T01:36:20.832+03:00also about Rav Eliezer ben Rav Shimon, I have not ...also about Rav Eliezer ben Rav Shimon, I have not looked up the sources but he is criticised by his friends for not fleeing the country as far as I can recommend. could you comment briefly on this ?meirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68993688831998869722013-08-27T01:35:21.859+03:002013-08-27T01:35:21.859+03:00Meir I realize you think I haven't thought abo...Meir I realize you think I haven't thought about these issues - but you are wrong. You also seem to think you can grab a fact and then ignore everything else. You might want to read my 3 books on child abuse before you make confident pronouncements either about the halacha or my competence in this area.<br /><br />Have you bothered reading what the poskim have said about the issue or think it is fine making up halacha based on one concern - the fear of arresting the innocent? Rav Dovid is not a daas yachid in this issue.<br /><br />Read the section of Yeshurun 15 which has teshuvos of geodlim on the subject of abuse. It is available on Hebrew books or on here http://www.sfjny.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=302&Itemid=69<br /><br />I gather you don't accept the Rambam(8:11) regarding someone who bothers the community, C.M. 388 or the Chasam Sofer to Gittin 7a which clearly allow you to take defensive actions - even if it means jail. This is the world of rodef. Rodef or even suspected rodef does not need a beis din or even a rav to enable you to defend yourself or others. Even though your perception is wrong - it is still permitted to call the police for self protection. See Rav Silman who says you can even kill a sofek rodef if think your life is in danger.<br /><br />You also are ignoring mandated reporting laws. See BM 83 where we see the R Eliezar bar R Shimon arrested Jews he suspected of being thieves - purely on the basis of circumstantial evidence with the knowledge that the Romans were going to crucify them. This gemora is accepted halacha l'maaseh.<br /><br />It also appears you don't believe the police are capable of investigating - but that the mere fact a person is accused of a crime means he goes to trial without any preliminary investigation. So yes there are innocent people who are arrested and jailed and even executed. And therefore what? <br /><br />You want to have 3 rabbi's who have no knowledge about abuse conduct a trial? You want anyone who you are not 100% certain is an abuser to remain free or to move to another community?<br /><br />Rav Yehuda Silman writes in Yeshurun 15<br /><br />Rav Yehuda Silman (Yeschurun 22 page 588): …On the one hand concerning the legal requirement - it is clear that there is no need to convene a beis din in the presence of both sides since the basis of the permission to report the perpetrator to the secular authorities is either because he is a possible rodef (pursuer) or to separate him from sinning or because of the government mandates reporting. In fact these cases do not require a beis din and we need to merely consider the possible loss versus the possible gain. If the accusations are in fact true then we are dealing with a case of saving a person from being harmed. While if the accusations are in fact not true then in general then the government will free him.... <br /><br />Bottom line - Rav Dovid Cohen's view is normative halacha. Is there a danger that there is a student out to get his rebbe or a wife trying destroy her husband in a divorce settlement? Of course. But there is also a concern that a molester will continue destroying lives because of the fear of arresting an innocent man or ruining his family reputation or causing a chilul hashem. Your concerns are applicable to all cases of crime. Nonetheless we still have an obligation to do the best we can - otherwise society will collapse. See Rav Moshe Feinstein teshuva about capital punishment.<br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-63296269885375046172013-08-27T00:17:35.436+03:002013-08-27T00:17:35.436+03:00'The bottom line is you don't seem to unde...'The bottom line is you don't seem to understand the difference between a defensive call to the police for help which might result in problems for an innocent person - and directly jailing a person you suspect of being a danger.'<br /><br />...<br /><br />my apologies if this is offensive. but lets say you had a relative who was teaching in a school.<br />and a pupil took a dislike to him and tells a rabbi he was being molested by him. the rabbi said tell the police as you need to be protected. he tells the police. it goes to trial and your relative is found innocent. his wife cracked up because of all the stress and is in and out of institutions. social workers are brought in to make sure the children are having their needs met. your relative's reputation is now ruined and he can no longer find anyone to employ him in chinuch or anything else. his children are shunned and cannot find shiduchim. one is otd.<br /><br />would you still say the rabbi paskened correctly.<br /><br />http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php<br />n about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.meirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-36453446372708476702013-08-26T23:16:54.329+03:002013-08-26T23:16:54.329+03:00Don't know what you are talking about in regar...Don't know what you are talking about in regards to mesira. It is clear from the collection of teshuvos in Yeschurun 15 from gedolim and other sources that what Rabbi Cohen writes above is accepted from Messira. <br /><br />Regarding arkous - what exactly are you referring to?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91886984557641757102013-08-26T22:50:32.101+03:002013-08-26T22:50:32.101+03:00Rav Lazer Ginsberg and Practicaly all Botei Dinim ...Rav Lazer Ginsberg and Practicaly all Botei Dinim and Poskim will Tell You You cannot Rely on Rabbi Doved Cohen from Gvul Yavetz Heteirm on Messira and ArkousShmayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1149386480734224692013-08-26T02:21:34.290+03:002013-08-26T02:21:34.290+03:00The problem with the Family court system (Which ar...The problem with the Family court system (Which are staffed By divorced Bitter Feminist woman with a chip on Their Shoulder and an Ax To Grind)is that they are extremely Biased against Males, especialy Orthodox Jewish Males whom They see as Backwards,Midevil, Chauvenistic Males who are out To Control and Repress their womanYoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3567261610154428642013-08-22T22:31:41.483+03:002013-08-22T22:31:41.483+03:00Rabbi Ephraim Birnbaum who worked as a Dayan in La...Rabbi Ephraim Birnbaum who worked as a Dayan in Lakewood for a Few Years Said Every Woman who wants a Restreaining order against Her Husband Knows To Go to Rabbi Dovid Cohen who will automaticaly give her a Heter Arkous To Get a Restraining order no Questions asked and They all say the same thing , Chas Vesholom i am not using it to get my Husband arrested i am just getting a piece of paper however as soon as they get the restraining order within 2 weeks the Husband is aarested because wonce they have that paper in their hands they are itching to use it and cannot go to sleep until they land their husband in jailchaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21497983050047844642013-08-22T03:17:50.629+03:002013-08-22T03:17:50.629+03:00I spoke To Rabbi Dovid Cohen of Gvul Yavetz, He sa...I spoke To Rabbi Dovid Cohen of Gvul Yavetz, He said any woman is entitled to go to court and Get a Restraining order against her Husband Without going to Bais Din First or even speaking to a Rov It is Her G-d Given Right. He did Acknowledge That woman have used The Restraining Order as a Pretext To Get Revenge on their Husbands By Filing Trivial or Baseless Violations of the Restraining orderobservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16477307489664702552013-08-09T18:24:42.278+03:002013-08-09T18:24:42.278+03:00I completely reject your conclusions. A posek who...I completely reject your conclusions. A posek whose integrity is questionable is worthless. It is only because of the control that the rabbis hold over the masses that they get away with this corruption. If rav elyashiv ppersonally singled out r beksky aa being unworthy of leadership then who cares about what the masses think all the corrupt leaders in tanach were accepted by the majority. I believe this corrupt approach will eventually lead to catastrophe r"l there is a limit to how much ccorruption Hashem will tolerate emesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22562569524049540172013-08-09T17:35:30.975+03:002013-08-09T17:35:30.975+03:00emes, you remind me very much of a previous poste...emes, you remind me very much of a previous poster - have you been here in a previous gilgul? hint: your reliance on R' Gestetner.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58850535918587102752013-08-09T17:03:25.082+03:002013-08-09T17:03:25.082+03:00No it isn't. You need to face the fact that th...No it isn't. You need to face the fact that the majority simple rejects your views.<br /><br />The world is a complex place. Often people are not liked or respected in the absolute sense - but relative to other things. Weiner seems to be respected by the Jewish community - and might win - not because he is a paragon of virture. But rather because the alternative is much less acceptable.<br /><br />A posek whose opinion is widely accepted is respected even though what he says and does are problematic or worse. The community needs respected poskim and often they are willing to pay the price.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30842220442289085882013-08-09T16:51:36.416+03:002013-08-09T16:51:36.416+03:00The reality that you refer to is based on pure ign...The reality that you refer to is based on pure ignorance. Marx was not totally incorrect when called religion the opium of the mmasses. I am sure all the corrupt kings and false prophets vwere also widely respected. Who cares. The emtorah is emes and condsiders sheker and corruption an abomination. Surely I dont need to spell it out for you? Rav elyashiv never respected r belsky to put it mildly. You are just trying to be ox emesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82157666820526624872013-08-09T15:17:13.282+03:002013-08-09T15:17:13.282+03:00Anyone familiar with the Orthodox world is aware t...Anyone familiar with the Orthodox world is aware that he is in fact a widely respected posek - as is Rav Belsky. Your disagreement with the view of the majority doesn't change the reality.<br /><br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33788431775768733962013-08-09T14:28:53.642+03:002013-08-09T14:28:53.642+03:00I am flabbergasted that you refer to this man as a...I am flabbergasted that you refer to this man as a "respected posek." No different from r yisroel belsky in terrms of integrity. Sorry just because he purports to agree with your pet cause changes nothing about him. emesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31775703741297345962013-08-09T02:55:26.480+03:002013-08-09T02:55:26.480+03:00As for your claims that you don't know anythin...As for your claims that you don't know anything about him giving women fake heterim to go to arko'oys you will receive a document where he gives a woman a heter to continue in arko'oys after she was the plaintiff and the man was able to convince the judge that there was misrepresentation and he was no threat to the children as was claimed. Dovid Cohen claimed that the husband fighting back makes him the one is arko'oys. You want the document i will try and get it to you. <br /><br />even mendel epstein considres him a ...<br /><br />Call rabbi gestetner and ask him who dovid cohen is.emesnoreply@blogger.com