tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post2795998509026939398..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Weiss-Dodelson: AZ asks why I don't agree with Kol Koreh to subject Avraham Meir to severe social and financial pressures?Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger204125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84945774155372024132013-11-22T04:16:03.967+02:002013-11-22T04:16:03.967+02:00No. They aren't the same ones. Go look.No. They aren't the same ones. Go look.aznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91770505373063385622013-11-22T00:56:41.624+02:002013-11-22T00:56:41.624+02:00I hear your points, but how do you call a declarat...I hear your points, but how do you call a declaration signed by all of those rabbonim "halachic nonsense"? There may be two sides to the issue, but a Kol Koreh clearly read and signed by those signators is not nonsense. Are you saying that every single one of those rabbonim, among them accomplished poskim, is signing on halachic nonsense?<br /><br />I can't believe that Reb Dovid Feistein or Reb Moshe would describe it as such.aznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78472868990498978182013-11-21T17:58:53.281+02:002013-11-21T17:58:53.281+02:00Anonymous or Benifnuman,
I have posted the recent ...Anonymous or Benifnuman,<br />I have posted the recent letter from the Gedolim in Israel that a GET forced by humiliation or other pressures is invalid from the Torah and the children are mamzerim. It is signed by Reb Chaim Kaniefsky, Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner, Rav Nissim Karelitz and many other major poskim and dayanim. Now do you still feel it is irresponsible to write that Kaminetsky and Schachter are producing mamzerim? I have published on this blog my own findings, based upon EH 77 para 2 and 3, that everyone, Shulchan Aruch, Ramo, Beis SHmuel, Chelkas Mechokake and Gro agree that any pressure is forbiddin in Mous Olei. Furthermore, according to Gitel's letter she is not MOUS OLEI, meaning she hates her husband so much she cannot be with him sexually. She wants her freedom to find another husband, but nowhere does she say she hates R Weiss to that degree. And if she does, the great rabbis have clearly ruled that we may not force the husband to divorce, and if we do, it is an invalid GET. The Gro EH 77 #5 states clearly that no opinion permits coercion, meaning, latter poskim who forced the Shulchan Aruch generation. And that is the law, and that determines mamzeruth.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42847534372186315342013-11-21T13:01:23.924+02:002013-11-21T13:01:23.924+02:00He's a big boy and decided to go to court and ...He's a big boy and decided to go to court and face the consequences thereof. <br /><br />He could of and should of pursued a more reasonable course such as mediation to settle the parenting and financial issue. He wanted more than he could reasonably expect, lost in court and now is trying to recoup his losses via the get trump card. <br /><br />Please stop the gratuitous insults.Yitz Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09626409388081098891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2405705400671245952013-11-21T09:55:24.139+02:002013-11-21T09:55:24.139+02:00In in Israeli beith din document posted somewhere ...In in Israeli beith din document posted somewhere here, the fear that the wife might want a get because she fell in love with someone else seems to play an important role.<br /><br />i.e. they pasken that if it can be established that she did NOT leave marriage in order to go with someone else, plus she has more or less valid reasons to leave the marriage plus enough time has elapsed, they are ready to take coercive measures. And those are coercive measures in Israel, i.e. prison etc.Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-11540605034842882352013-11-21T09:49:30.965+02:002013-11-21T09:49:30.965+02:00RDE believes that Gital should pay 350'000$ to...RDE believes that Gital should pay 350'000$ to obtain a get. So I suppose he believes that AMW claims 350'000$.<br /><br />It is true that we were not in this marriage, so we don't know what happened. But what shocks me is that many comentators on this blog believe that what Gital says in the nypost article is true (that he did not earn money, that he refused a housekeeper she wanted to pay with her money, that he gave her money to a relative who was out of work) and they think it is OK and the word of G-d to act like this!<br /><br />Those comments make the torah look really, really bad.Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-34789665109871117352013-11-21T09:44:53.413+02:002013-11-21T09:44:53.413+02:00Your words are vain, as your nickname indicates.
...Your words are vain, as your nickname indicates.<br /><br />The Torah says that he has to provide for her, for himself and for the children. So the Torah would never accept a husband suing his ex for Alimony and Child support.<br /><br />The Torah says that she can renounce being provided for and keep her money. This seems to have been the arrangement here.<br /><br />If she is on that arrangement and she is millionare, she does not owe him one cent, and he can go hungry and sleep under the bridge, she owes him NOTHING.<br /><br />Because the Torah says that it is NOT upon the wife to provide for the husband, but the other way round.Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32013431502774239332013-11-21T05:48:27.179+02:002013-11-21T05:48:27.179+02:00Yes, the EH tshuvah is dealing with a case of hete...Yes, the EH tshuvah is dealing with a case of heter me'ah rabbonim. So what? I think you are taking an excessively narrow, legalistic view. If R. Moshe thinks it is OK to use a get for financial leverage in general, why does he think it inconceivable that Rabbeinu Gershom or any other beit din would arrange for the husband to preserve that leverage while getting a heter me'ah rabbonim.? And in the YD tshuvah he seems pretty strong that neither party can avoid a get to press a financial claim. <br /><br />As to point 2) one of the objections he raises and says can be overcome is his own ruling that it does not require haggadas eidus to render an apikorus possul l'eidus. So I think it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that because it is a case of Igun he is going beyond where he would normally go.<br /><br />Furthermore, it would seem axiomatic that both divorcing spouses remain required to treat each other within the Torah's requirement of "Loving thy neighbor as thyself" which would seem to preclude using either access to the children or a get (or acceptance of a get) as leverage for financial claims.<br /><br />It would similarly seem axiomatic that if the husband no longer wishes to fulfill his obligation of Onah, he must give a get.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17631773669293665022013-11-21T04:36:21.570+02:002013-11-21T04:36:21.570+02:00The teshuva is referring to heter meah rabonon,
H...The teshuva is referring to heter meah rabonon,<br /><br />However it is clear to any objective person that the reason R Moshe holds why heter meah rabonon can not be used to leverage a get - is because that is considered morally wrong to use igun - her inability to remarry - as leverage. - bobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86132736811095221492013-11-21T03:05:02.380+02:002013-11-21T03:05:02.380+02:00She said she knew it was a mistake right away, but...She said she knew it was a mistake right away, but what you're ignoring is that she was in fact right! this simply make her a very perceptive person.<br /> I believe she knew even before right away. <br /><br />Her parents talked her into it, because of his qualities and midos, albeit she looked for something completely different in life. Hoping to change some ones outlook on life, is unjust and unfair to the other party. Suppose he has the same notion, and does not tell her, there would be a world crisis in divorce. Waking up after the fact, it is highly convenient to dig up a smear campaign blaming the other party. Eishes potifar did the same, just because Joseph refused her, and it is very common for women to accuse of sexual inuendos, child abuse, denying visitation rights, rape, violence and stabbing in the seventh rib ever so viciously through the course of divorce proceedings for Nitzachon's sake. Where was her perception of all these grave allegations beforehand. It is simply organisations like ORA, korach ve'edato, that coach her to say so. If you read her deliberate misinterpretations @ ilana, that is a giveaway of her true character. He begged her not to spill it out in public, and yet she took it up to devesate him at the expense of the whole family and Hakodosh Boruch hu as well. She will have her way no matter what, will stop at nothing. That is not what you call a Jew or a good Jew for that matter.<br /><br />Just how bad does the husband have to treat the wife? I'm really curious what you think.<br /><br />When it becomes unbearable, and after "both parties gave their honest to goodness best efforts to get along", make it go and have exhausted it all, much more so when children's health and well being are at stake, it reached the stage to part each other. A true talmid chacham without bias, can see through it all, and if you can fool some of the people some of the time, you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. I wouldn't put it beyond this couple that it was well within repair, indeed, her choice of a Therapist attested to that. It is because she had no interest from the get go, and deliberately destroyed any potential of a possibility, how sad. I feel his pain, and the family's pain, and what a shame that for selfish reasons she snuffed out the best interest of her own child. It is time to go, but you must clean up the mess, before you do so. I wish both hatzlacha in the future.<br />@ yitzNovember 19, 2013 at 6:37 AMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84748373193090129872013-11-21T02:56:12.295+02:002013-11-21T02:56:12.295+02:00Blatant,
Your aren't the sharpest chrein in t...Blatant, <br />Your aren't the sharpest chrein in the store!! The Torah says it's his, and it's a chutzpah for him to be spending it. You just don't take the Torah seriously!! I am a proponent of איני נזונת ואיני עושה, but you my friend, are just a closet heretic. <br />Your ideas are strange, and you definitely care nothing about the Torah. You are another one of these frauds who thinks, what he decides IS Torah. Asher pihem diber shavnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75625579607624310002013-11-21T02:52:01.373+02:002013-11-21T02:52:01.373+02:00Rabbis Eidensohn,
There is a machlokes Rishonim r...Rabbis Eidensohn,<br /><br />There is a machlokes Rishonim regarding whether or not we are "kofin" in a case of "Moes Ali." The Rambam holds we are kofin (but she doesn't collect her kesuba), the Tosafos HaRid holds we are kofin if there is an amasla, and Rashi is mashma we are kofin (at least after 12 months). Furthermore, the Rif brings down a Takana of the Geonim that we are kofin right away (without waiting 12 months). The Rambam and the Tosafos HaRid hold that the Geonim's takana was dealing with a case where her Kavanah was to cause him pain (or moredes without an amasla according to the Rid).<br /><br />On the other hand, Rabbeinu Tam, the Rashba and others hold that we are not kofin by Moes Ali, even after 12 months, and the Takana of the Geonim is not binding. The Shulchan Aruch and the Rama pasken like R"T and the Rashba. The Rashba rejects the Takanas HaGeonim (which had been made out of fear that women were going to the secular authorities for divorces) because maybe the women is lying about the man being disgusting to her and rather "she has placed her eyes on someone else." If she is in fact lying and a kefiya was under false pretenses the "get" would be posul and future children would be mamzeirim. <br /><br />I have never seen an authoritative source, however, that holds that if a Beis Din is kofin in accordance with shitas HaRambam (and k'neged the Shulchan Aruch) that the children are actually mamzeirim. <br /><br />More importantly, the Rama in Even HaEzer 154 clearly states that the rabbonim have the right and the power to put societal pressure on a man to give a get even if it is not a case of kofin. Finally, even if we are not kofin doesn't mean that the man doesn't have bein adam l'chaveiro responsibility to give his wife a get (e.g. v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha; v'halachta b'drachav; lo sikom; hachnosas kallah, etc.). <br /><br />In summation, I think it is irresponsible for you to write that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky or Rav Herschel Schachter are creating mamzeirim and it is assur to listen to them. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />BenignumanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-81117732259209511782013-11-21T01:43:34.583+02:002013-11-21T01:43:34.583+02:00Blatant, undisputed only in your imagination.Blatant, undisputed only in your imagination.Sanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68547164865159969402013-11-21T01:26:59.242+02:002013-11-21T01:26:59.242+02:001) The EH teshuva is specifically referring to het...1) The EH teshuva is specifically referring to heter meah rabbonim.<br /><br />2) Don't see derive anything from that teshuva. If the get is in fact kosher but there are issues that people my be bothered by - so she should have a 2nd get. But she doesn't have to pay a large sum for that perfect get.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67623544007743204322013-11-21T00:56:08.888+02:002013-11-21T00:56:08.888+02:001) Actually I think the strongest language is in ...1) Actually I think the strongest language is in the EH tshuva, about it being inconceivable that a proper beit din would in any way permit the husband to remarry while he was withholding a get over even a clear financial obligation ("she certainly stole some of his money".) Of course he doesn't condemn going to beis din with a financial claim--what else does one do with a financial claim? That doesn't mean it is acceptable to withhold a get until the wife adjudicates a financial claim in the husband's preferred beit din.<br /><br />2) Of course if R. Moshe felt the get in the last tshuvah were absolutely possul, he wouldn't have permitted her to remarry. On the other hand I am sure you know better than I that, had the husband in that case only wanted reimbursement for the sofer's fee, R. Moshe would have absolutely required a second get. Thus the word "adayin" in the penultimate sentence. And while I didn't want to post and translate the whole tshuva because that one is long and technical, it seems clear to me from reading it that Rav Moshe is treating this as a b'dieved situation because she will otherwise be an aguna.<br /><br />Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65236298249560418562013-11-21T00:55:51.010+02:002013-11-21T00:55:51.010+02:00"she has decided to destroy him and his famil..."she has decided to destroy him and his family for not giving in to her demands".<br /><br />Why demands? She asked for one thing, a get. Which should be given now that they are divorced anyway.Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39022766662216326212013-11-21T00:54:39.280+02:002013-11-21T00:54:39.280+02:00"in an effort to prevent them from getting a ..."in an effort to prevent them from getting a proper custody arrangment" <br /><br />He HAS a proper custody arrangement, more generous than most!Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80389578928406309712013-11-21T00:53:19.619+02:002013-11-21T00:53:19.619+02:00"Beis din is the place to evaluate this after..."Beis din is the place to evaluate this after hearing from both sides".<br /><br />AMW refused to appear before the beit din... Already forgotten?Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39413045248625056022013-11-21T00:48:54.883+02:002013-11-21T00:48:54.883+02:00We have two sides here:
- We have the fact the ci...We have two sides here:<br /><br />- We have the fact the civil divorce is through and that AMW refuses to give the get unless he receives 350'000 $. This fact is undisputed, and it says a lot about his personality.<br /><br />- We have the subjective description of Gital about why she left the marriage.<br /><br />Personally, I see no contradication between AMW's publicly known and undisputed attitude ("I want money for my get") and the description of him as a husband in the NY Post article.<br /><br />That he did not provide for his family is undisputed. That he sued his wife for child support and alimony is undisputed. That he is ready to destroy his father and uncle's parnassa rather than give a get is undisputed.Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8528262140484708912013-11-21T00:33:25.122+02:002013-11-21T00:33:25.122+02:00"They did in fact go to therapy for 4 session..."They did in fact go to therapy for 4 sessions"<br /><br />That was after she moved out.<br /><br />Which shows that she was right to move out, since he was not at all cooperative before that. nor after that...<br /><br />I suppose, to him it was all about moneyBlatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86503179066171471812013-11-21T00:17:23.418+02:002013-11-21T00:17:23.418+02:00"To make believe that AMW is any worse in his..."To make believe that AMW is any worse in his "controlling behavior" than the average yeshiva guy, is a stretch." <br /><br />Well, in this case, all the worse for the average yeshiva guy.<br /><br />I would say it is not only controlling, but also just plain chutzpa to live on the money the wife earns plus to tell her what she can or cannot do with her money.<br /><br />it is just plain theft to take from her money and to spend it without her consent.<br /><br />Remember: she was the breadwinner in the family, not him.<br /><br />So tell him: if you want to milk a cow, you have to bow. He did not know how to bow, therefore the cow refused to be milked. To bad for AMW!<br /><br />Having seen some marriages that started with symptoms like the ones gital describes in the NY Post article, I can tell you that Gital was right to leave, and she should have done it earlier, when he first threatened to divorce her.<br /><br />Because as far as I can see around me, husbands who feel entitled like AMW do not change their controlling behaviour, and it just gets worse with the years.<br /><br />So kudos to Gital that she left, and kudos that she does not cave in to get extortion.<br /><br />I suppose, she is stronger in the long run, because AMW will want sex more than he wants the money, so he will find someone else and give the get so that HE can remaary.Blatantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72792752789324396852013-11-20T23:08:31.820+02:002013-11-20T23:08:31.820+02:00here are some of your own excerpts, .Now it's ... here are some of your own excerpts, .Now it's time for you to chew on that.<br />********************<br />-all men that keep their wives chained. *(what about, whip, shackles n the works)<br />-the truth that our religion can be so sexist against woman not by design but because of some men and their decisions? <br /><br />* Adam's Rib, Adam's Apple, Designed by who? That is the extent your Love of Torah /Religion / Shulchan Aruch? Afra lepumech!<br /><br />-Let the world know what some disgusting men are doing to their wives, I don't care. We let it happen and now we reap what we sow as the world sees that what power a man can have over his wife in our religion.<br />-the only reason the get is not being given is because the man wants to control his wife,<br />-and you seriously think g-d commands that a woman be in a terrible marriage.<br /><br /> * Do you really believe in g-d, do you think he is fair? Huh?<br /><br />-hi Daas Torah, our disagreement is NOT about halacha after all, it's about something else ...<br />She makes it VERY clear that he was very controlling <br />-Avrohom said, “I can’t give you a get — how else would I control you?” <br /><br /> * On information and belief, My understanding is, she took this completely out of context. Since she was so consumed with her perceived concept as if being controlled, AM handed her, her own logic, with tounge in cheek, and that's where therapy can help both. This was deliberately twisted around, as if meant as said.<br /><br />-at least now you can understand i'm not just ranting and raving, i'm quoting the agunah.<br />* Yes, but with the wrong interpretation, same as hers. Brilliant, Ms. Brainstein.<br /><br />-what is wrong if a Rabbi is a feminist? <br />* He is liable to be Megaleh panim baTorah shelo kehalacha, and they do!<br />********************************<br />You sound very angry and upset with your g-d, religion, halacha, torah, sages, authority, command & control, life in general and men in particular, with yourself, and last but not least, Husbands, with a great passion. Getting even by and with Chilul Hashem, is not an option. Please, get some Therapy ASAP, n you''ll be fine. Do yourself a big favor, after blogging dilligently for the past two days, left and right, you deserve a break. ToodoolooMajor Tom to Ms. ilana Yellow Submarine Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12971513417584428952013-11-20T23:05:31.763+02:002013-11-20T23:05:31.763+02:00-I hold in the shulchan aruch. Now i ask you, how ...-I hold in the shulchan aruch. Now i ask you, how is the amount of money (350k ?) derived based on what is written in the shulchan aruch? <br /><br />* See Breishis 25:6 velivnei hapilagshim asher leaAvraham (see Rashi zu hagar) nosan matonos vayshalechem meal Yitzchok beno beodenu chay kedmo el eretz kedem. In spite there was good reason to send her on her way for smoking to avodo zoro, he still pacified her with compensation, when the wife at hand, never had justifiable cause to part ways and did cause irreparable damage, al achat kama vekama. Is Torah good enough for you? <br /><br />* Requesting to light candles his mothers way, is a far cry from control, if she cannot please on such a minor issue, imagine when it comes to something truly serious, such as if the house is engulfed in flames, rather than trying to put out the fire, you add more fuel to the fire. <br /><br />* See Breishis 24:67, " Vayvieho Yitzchak ho'ohelo Sarah imo vayikach et Rivkah vathi lo leisha VAYE'EHOVEHO, vayinochem Yitzchak acharei imo", See Rashi, shekol zman shSarah kayemet haya ner doluk merev shabbat lerev shabbat ubrocho metzuyo...umishemeso paskah, ukeshba'at Rivkah chozru! If such a minor thing as seeing his mothers candlel ighting, brought Yitzchok to Love and to be consoled, is that such a big price to pay? Which woman in her right mind would exchange such a blessed opportunity for Doodaim to buy her husbands love, bite the nose in spite your face, just to prove who is BOSS? Now that my dear, was retzon Ba'ala, only to forfeit, nebach- on her very FIRST Shabbos. Is that so much to ask? You are creating a mountain from a mole hill. Is this her Attorney wannabe logic of command and control? Is this the nightmare picture of her marriage in the NY ComPoste. Indeed, shame on her! And from this, you leapfrog to beating a wife? You, are for sure the mother of all Attorneys wannabe, blessed with Solompn's wisdom. Yerachem hamrachem! <br /><br />* Yes, she did want to visit a marriage counselor, provided on her turf, on her terms, permitting four strikes n out, does she also get to dictate what he should advise or what he can say? Who is in control? Or better yet, who is Out of control and out of order? A marriage counselor, you and her, will never be either. Maybe just a devils advocate, if you can succeed. <br /><br />-In terms of halacha, please tell us where we draw the line. how bad does a husband have to be for the halacha to say he has to give his wife a get? Does the shulchan aruch really discuss something that is actually quite subjective? I'd love to hear from you Sally.<br /> <br />* Ha! And you claim, " I hold in the shulchan aruch." Ilana dear, you first must be honest with yourself before you ask on others. "Kshot atzmech", is in order. <br />In addition, this is only speculative, and I firmly believe that "Maus olay", she had no clue what it means or how you eat it. These are the feminist ra bais, ORA, that coach a MOREDES to allege and disseminate. You cross the bridge when you get there, and say the truth, and nothing but the truth, YOU don't need to hoard weapons of mass destruction in your back pocket handy at moments notice.<br /><br />* Furthermore, see Breishis 1:27, Vayivro E' es ho'odom, later in B. 2:18 ... Eese lo Ezer, to complement and to suplement, B. 3:16, vehu yimshol bach. You can see the order of hierarchy, and all genders are not created equal, some are born more equal. Don't try to outsmart the Ribono shel Olam. Please excuse my french, but you seem to have the butch femme problem with authority, power, super power, equality, hate men with a passion, Major Tom to Ms. ilana Yellow Submarine Anoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15404797740095734122013-11-20T23:00:02.438+02:002013-11-20T23:00:02.438+02:00No one says the Halachic right to withhold a Get i...No one says the Halachic right to withhold a Get is the only issue here. You have Chillul Hashem, Sakanos Nefashos, and the destruction of Torah life in Chutz L'Aretz. Klal Yisroel has a long history of Rabbonim and Poskim who would let the Beis HaMikdash be destroyed in order to prevent bringing a Korban with a slight blemish on it. We who don’t want to witness another Churban must fight against those who are destroying Torah, even if they can find some Posek somewhere to support their destruction. Hopefulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37731933366790165302013-11-20T21:38:20.910+02:002013-11-20T21:38:20.910+02:00But it is yashrus for Weiss to out his son to bed ...But it is yashrus for Weiss to out his son to bed or say modeh ani with him in the morning four times per month?Nevillenoreply@blogger.com