tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post2265962805033320022..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rav Eliashiv:Ma'os Alei - Get not required (1 174)Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18303907387801394222023-08-13T13:29:53.079+03:002023-08-13T13:29:53.079+03:00"the Rambam is not correct in this matter...&..."the Rambam is not correct in this matter..."Kalonymus HaQatannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17801560623183613382012-04-24T00:45:52.743+03:002012-04-24T00:45:52.743+03:00PS: My problem is that "shalom bayis" of...PS: My problem is that "shalom bayis" often is a euphemism were the wife is pushed to accept the unacceptable, like infidelity, disrespect, violence...Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52598436615992527762012-04-24T00:43:47.571+03:002012-04-24T00:43:47.571+03:00I never argued that he should be forced to stay ma...I never argued that he should be forced to stay married to her if she does not want to have sex. This is something you brought up.<br /><br />I argued, on the contrary, that<br />1) She should never be forced to have sex (nor should he)<br /><br />2) If she does not want to have sex and wants a divorce, he should give it to her<br /><br />My position is that marriage as well as sex should be consensual, i.e. it does not work if only one of both want it.<br /><br />So I completely agree that not wanting sexual relationships is ground for divorce. And wanting divorce is ground for divorce too...<br /><br />I do not think it brings blessing to force someone to stay married against their will, even though divorce might cause heartbreak.Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55882784543279410272012-04-23T23:23:31.478+03:002012-04-23T23:23:31.478+03:00Uh you're changing the case on me. You seeming...Uh you're changing the case on me. You seemingly were commenting that we shouldn't be forcing women to have relations with there husbands (they should have the right to just say no). I responded that it's not fair to force a man to stay married to a woman that refuses to have relations. Now you've set up a bunch of cases where the woman's refusal is justified based on the husbands behavior. I was not discussing that kind of case and neither were you. <br /><br /><i>If she says every time he comes near me, it makes me vomit, but I don't know why, is this a valid reason?</i><br /><br />That is the kind of refusal to have sex which will cause a women to lose her right to stay married.nonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91630191365166314882012-04-23T11:27:10.009+03:002012-04-23T11:27:10.009+03:00Batmelech your style is basically "when did y...Batmelech your style is basically "when did you stop beating your wife". Please climb down from your tree and try discussing the issues instead of issuing pronouncements. You have a raised a number of important points - but your approach is blocking discussion rather than encouraging it.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84622568949640470882012-04-23T09:13:43.118+03:002012-04-23T09:13:43.118+03:00@daas torah:
Since you did not reply wholehearted...@daas torah:<br /><br />Since you did not reply wholeheartedly "yes" when I asked you whether you would fullfill your mitzwa to kill 1000 amalekite babies if you had the occasion, you also aknoledge that Torah evolves over time and not every Torah imperative is morally justifiable at our day and age.<br /><br />Torah law is changing and has been changing over centuries, often in order to adapt to local/temporal cultures and moral references. Some "parties" do it more slowly, others more rapidly, but overall it changes and it could happen that something that was a mitzwah becomes unacceptable in a later time or vice-versa.Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12561032076312741952012-04-23T09:08:47.615+03:002012-04-23T09:08:47.615+03:00"Batmelech, I don't know where you're..."Batmelech, I don't know where you're getting the idea that women are to be forced (or even "encouraged") to have relations when they don't want to."<br /><br />Because I have women around me who are told just that by rabbonim. (And see the comment by none, just after you, and by Binyamin)<br /><br />@none: <br />"Batmelech do you think it's ok for a girl to get married and then declare I do not want to have relations with you ever?" <br /><br />Absolutely. Take the situation where the husband has aquired a STD through an extramarital affair and cannot be healed (before the age of antibiotics). <br /><br />Or take the situation where the husband constatly demeans his wife, so that she does not want relationships any more.<br /><br />Or take the situation of physical violence.<br /><br />Or just assume he had extramarital affairs and she does not want him any more.Batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25235544582558533042012-04-22T22:00:44.056+03:002012-04-22T22:00:44.056+03:00One must also apply some historical context to Rav...One must also apply some historical context to Rav Elyashiv's words. When he says "according to her desire... or not," etc., he is referring to the biblical requirements for get. We now also have additional rabbinic and customary requirements. Biblically, she may receive a get against her will, but we do not permit that today. However, despite the rabbinic prohibition, the biblical rule is still used in understanding the rabbinic rules, and may be a deciding factor in certain situations.<br /><br />In the quote near the start of this post, I understand Rav ELyashiv to have merely been explaining that accroding to biblical law, a woman can NEVER force a man to give a get, and that his reading of subsequent enactments is that they never change this rule.observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49161886942579711042012-04-20T17:36:54.121+03:002012-04-20T17:36:54.121+03:00Batmelech do you think it's ok for a girl to g...Batmelech do you think it's ok for a girl to get married and then declare I do not want to have relations with you ever? Can she force him to stay married to her under such circumstances because "hey relations aren't my obligation it's yours"? Is this going to be the new male agunah crisis?<br /><br />No one is forcing her to have relations with her husband. But she does lose the right to stay married to him, for obvious reasons.nonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72329997415536738902012-04-20T16:48:44.281+03:002012-04-20T16:48:44.281+03:00Batmelech, I don't know where you're getti...Batmelech, I don't know where you're getting the idea that women are to be forced (or even "encouraged") to have relations when they don't want to. That's not what he said, and that's not the law.yeshayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20238206706905157142012-04-19T23:58:24.076+03:002012-04-19T23:58:24.076+03:00He did not care to reply...He did not care to reply...krollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85324751167395135052012-04-19T16:08:44.500+03:002012-04-19T16:08:44.500+03:00In short: there is no clear cut definition and it ...In short: there is no clear cut definition and it is up to the subjective evaluation of the beith din whether a wife should be forced ('encouraged') to have marital relations with her husband...<br /><br />Because I was always under the impression that the wife has no obligation whatsoever to have marital relations with her husband. I was taught it was an obligation of the husband towards the wife and not vice versa.<br /><br />See how propaganda leaves out essential bits of information - or how men distort the law in their favour.batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14902704729148576482012-04-19T10:30:35.651+03:002012-04-19T10:30:35.651+03:00Whether or not you are disturbed by the question, ...Whether or not you are disturbed by the question, and it is a real case with which I am familiar, you didn't answer the question.<br /><br />According to <b>this</b> Teshuva is the husband required to give his wife a Get? I'm not so worried about what other Rabbanim have written or done, or even what the B"D in the case did(because I know that, and there is now a Rosh Yeshiva in Jerusalem who is posul eidut). What concerns me is, given the wording of this Teshuva in the name of Rav Eliashiv, what should the B"D have done? According to this teshuva is there grounds to force the husband to divorce his wife?<br />I know it is an extreme case, however, when the Rav says, <i>Even if you grant that this woman has the status of one who says ma’us alei with a clear justification, that in itself does not require that the husband give her a get.</i> What does that mean?Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51934750454944599612012-04-19T05:36:53.573+03:002012-04-19T05:36:53.573+03:00Rav Dovid Eidensohn: thank you for your replies. T...Rav Dovid Eidensohn: thank you for your replies. The view that nearly all marriages can be saved is also held by Rav Shalom Arush, author of Garden of Peace, who reports much success when men (women too, but especially men) are convinced to start following his rules of shalom bayis.yeshayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39869750079164750272012-04-18T23:48:34.742+03:002012-04-18T23:48:34.742+03:00Batmelech,
MOUS OLEI is basically defined as being...Batmelech,<br />MOUS OLEI is basically defined as being so disgusting that she cannot have marital relations with him. But if she does have marital relations but is angry about his behavior that is probably not enough. On the other hand, if she does reach a state where she can no longer relate to him in marital relations even if she is married and have children for many years, if she can explain why a new thing happened she may win her case. She has to convince the Beth Din that she is honest in her statement that she cannot be with her husband, and they will accept her statements without any kind of proof if they feel it is believable.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49709611411704057532012-04-18T23:10:19.876+03:002012-04-18T23:10:19.876+03:00BatMelech,
I am very disturbed by the question pos...BatMelech,<br />I am very disturbed by the question posed as being one where the husband who is a criminal is supported by a rabbi. This is sick. I don't hate the husband who is probably somewhat insane, but the rabbi! Wow.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66737381008147724862012-04-18T23:08:51.943+03:002012-04-18T23:08:51.943+03:00Batmelech,
If a husband maims his wife the way you...Batmelech,<br />If a husband maims his wife the way you describe it, it is surely much, much worse than the standard MOUS OLEI. I don't know the details of the case, but if the details you describe are accurate, it is very possible that the husband has crossed the line into doing things that are utterly incompatible with marriage, and in some of these, we beat him to force the GET. But, it may make a difference to the Beth Din involved if this was a one time fling not likely to be repeated, or a common practice. A common practice in such a case would find a very sympathetic ear if they came to me. But again, each case must be clearly researched, even though such a thing seems to cross all the lines.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65289063659803296162012-04-18T23:03:49.577+03:002012-04-18T23:03:49.577+03:00Batmelelch,
I was once in a Beth Din and suddenly ...Batmelelch,<br />I was once in a Beth Din and suddenly we noticed an apparition coming into the building. I went outside to see what it was. It was a tall, lovely young woman, who was wrapped up like ten medieval nuns, fantastic. I asked her what she wanted and it seems she was a baales teshuva a professional writer who had enough of secular freedom and wanted to be a real Dovid Eidensohn type of lady. Do you think she was normal? Come to Monsey or any Haredi area and there are a lot of her here.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68159650476441153812012-04-18T23:01:07.824+03:002012-04-18T23:01:07.824+03:00Batmelech,
I once spoke in a shull about gender is...Batmelech,<br />I once spoke in a shull about gender issues, and it seemed to go well, until an older lady accosted me in public and said, "Do you beat your wife." I was at a loss what to say. Should I protest or what? Just then a lady burst out laughing. She said, "Do you know his wife?"<br /><br />Why don't you ask my daughters if they want to be modern?Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68600936602379423312012-04-18T22:56:37.212+03:002012-04-18T22:56:37.212+03:00Yeshaya,
Hating a wife is hate and hate is awful, ...Yeshaya,<br />Hating a wife is hate and hate is awful, especially if children are involved. But there was a time when they loved each other, so why not try to recapture that time? When a couple hates each other look for two things: relatives and others who are kindling the flame with their mouths, and a lack of proper therapists. There are today and have been always masters at making shalom bayis. A therapist told me that if the right people get involved marriages can be saved. But if left to fester, the hate is a horror.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55467188244662976992012-04-18T22:53:02.481+03:002012-04-18T22:53:02.481+03:00Yeshaya,
That is a good point, as we are a kind na...Yeshaya,<br />That is a good point, as we are a kind nation. But tell that to a husband who loves his wife and loves his children and now may lose both because of what he feels is an unjustified effort by the wife. I therefore only wrote things that I tell husbands who are not giving a GET and they accept what I say but they have their decision to make.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31795063308127404482012-04-18T21:05:44.476+03:002012-04-18T21:05:44.476+03:00But who defines a valid reason?
If she says ever...But who defines a valid reason? <br /><br />If she says every time he comes near me, it makes me vomit, but I don't know why, is this a valid reason?batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56836399620095353592012-04-18T18:57:22.594+03:002012-04-18T18:57:22.594+03:00If she doesn't have a valid reason. As the Ra...If she doesn't have a valid reason. As the Rav says, <i>All of this is only when she doesn’t give a reason and justification for her words as to my she finds him repulsive. But if she does give a reason for her words... And we don’t force him to divorce her nor do we force her to remain with him. And if you want to claim that he must divorce her – it is obvious that since we don’t force her to remain with him then of necessity that there can’t be an obligation of the husband to give her a get. It is the same thing.</i><br />It appears that at least according to this Teshuva, she is only a moredet, if she does not have a valid reason for her words.<br />However, even if she does have a valid reason, like getting beaten with a metal bar, then we still do not force him to divorce her(according to this Teshuva).Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21194338936173932012012-04-18T16:30:08.037+03:002012-04-18T16:30:08.037+03:00I understood from this tshuva that any wife denyin...I understood from this tshuva that any wife denying sexual relationships for 1 year is considered a moredet and looses all rights...<br /><br />Is this correct?batmelechnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9360419689743455342012-04-18T14:49:34.249+03:002012-04-18T14:49:34.249+03:00The problem is he[the sefer] isn't talking abo...The problem is he[the sefer] isn't talking about a moredet, he is talking about a woman with a justification for Maos Ali, as it is written, <i>Even if you grant that this woman has the status of one who says ma’us alei with a clear justification, that in itself does not require that the husband give her a get.</i><br />That in my mind would include a woman who is beaten. Whose husband forces her to committ aveirot with him, ect. In which case moredet does not apply.<br /><br />Likvod HaRav it should be mentioned that, at least the last I had hear, Rav Eliashiv himself didn't write the Kovetz Teshuvot. The sefer was written(redacted would be a better word) from material found in Piskei Din, which was the recordings of the Beit Din HaGadol when Rav Ovadia Yosef, Rav Kappach and Rav Eliashiv sat the Beit Din together. <br />While all of the Teshuvot given represent the opinion of Rav Eliashiv at the time, he was not always the majority opinion, meaning his opinion was not always how the case was decided nor arguably, "the accepted halakha."<br /><br />Ultimately to understand the case at hand one would have to look up the original case in Piskei Din, and thus see the full case that came before the B"D and the full reasoned ruling. You have none of that here. To further complicate the matter, only the first volume of Kovetz Teshuvot actually lists the source in Piskei Din.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com