tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post1848298679627863393..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Kollel IV - Response to criticismsDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52936315643121199862008-10-06T08:37:00.000+02:002008-10-06T08:37:00.000+02:00I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic...<I>I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic who cannot fast on Yom Kippur as a kosher witness or for a minyan.</I><BR/><BR/>A diabetic?!? What on earth would passul him for eidus? I suspect that he wouldn't count him for a minyan on a public fast day. You really mixed this one up.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55974000446702023842008-10-03T03:04:00.000+03:002008-10-03T03:04:00.000+03:00Earners said... The concept of "Haredi Harvard", t...Earners said... <BR/><BR/><I>The concept of "Haredi Harvard", the Lithuanian yeshiva began in Europe about 150 years ago in response to Haskala and in order to discourage young men from attending university.</I><BR/><BR/>This is a very dubious claim in several respects:<BR/><BR/>A) Simply as a matter of basic history, virtually anyone discussing this issue would date the beginning of the modern yeshiva movement from the founding of the Yeshiva of Volozhin in 1802, more than two centuries ago.<BR/><BR/>B) While the founding of Volozhin and its related yeshivos was a major change in the way yeshivos were organized and funded, it did not really represent a fundamental change in how Torah scholarship was pursued. (It was more a response to how individual Jewish communities were no longer providing the necessary funding for such scholarship.)<BR/><BR/>The ideal of intensive long-term Torah study, <B>with communal support</B>, is of very great antiquity. (The simple fact of the halachic debate we have already discussed is testimony to this.) R' Binyamin of Tudela, in his famous travel journals from the 12th century, describes such yeshivos in various communities. For example, he speaks of such a yeshiva in Lunel, "The students that come from distant lands to learn the Law are taught, boarded, lodged and clothed by the congregation, so long as they attend to house of study."<BR/><BR/>There are other similar historical accounts from many periods in history.<BR/><BR/>C) The claim that the yeshivos were a response to Haskala is dubious on its face for the simple fact that the Volozhin yeshiva was founded at the very beginning of the 19th century and the Haskalah movement did not become a significant force (especially in Eastern Europe) until mid-century. <BR/><BR/>D) The claim that the yeshivos were intended to discourage attendence at non-Jewish colleges is, quite frankly, absurd. Jews were not permitted to attend the non-Jewish colleges in Eastern Europe. There is a reason why all the great Eastern European maskilim had good yeshiva educations. Those were the only centers of higher learning open to them! If the yeshiva movement had originated in Germany or France, your claim might have made some sense, but the great yeshivas of the 19th century were in Eastern Europe.<BR/><BR/><I>Perhaps it is time to accept that the Jewish people cannot support a significant percentage of families whose head of households do not work.<BR/>The affluence of the last generation of American Jews is now a memory.</I><BR/><BR/>It is probably true that a serious drop in affluence within the Orthodox community will probably result in a parallel drop in the numbers of young men in kollel. This would be unfortunate but inevitable.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if I agree that this drop in affluence has already occured. In my opinion, if anything, the biggest problem the yeshivos and kollelim face is an excess of affluence. Many of our young people have been raised in such comfortable environments that they are unable to make the necessary sacrifices for long-term study in kollel. (I don't want to say much more in this regard lest I violate "al tiftach peh l'satan.")<BR/><BR/>In any event, I don't know if anyone has actual numbers on this, but, as I have stated previously, the overwhelming majority of kollelleit go to work after four to five years. To describe the current situation in the frum community in America as being a "a significant percentage of families whose head of households do not work" is almost certainly not accurate. Of course, much depends on how you count the numbers (e.g. who is considered part of the "Jewish people" for this calculation. All Jews? All Orthodox Jews? A chareidi Jews? All Lakewood alumni?) and what you consider significant.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>If we will expect women to support large families, we will have to repeal the Takana against marrying more than one wife because statistically women earn significantly less on average than men.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's gonna happen.<BR/><BR/><I>The system is bankrupt and it is not fair to raise our sons without a parnassa (which is the same as raising him to be a criminal) or our daughters to be beggars.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the "system is bankrupt." If you are talking about finances, then, as I have said, I am far from convinced. By any reasonable historical standard, the frum Jewish world of the early 21st century is one of the most affluent of all time. To claim that we are simply incapable of shouldering a burden that previous generations did with far greater sacrifice says much more about our values than it does about our finances. <BR/><BR/>As for raising our children without a parnassa, asides for the fact that this is a very, very old debate (as per the last mishna in Kiddushin), you are grossly oversimplifying the situation. Firstly, throughout the bulk of human history, teaching your child a trade meant apprenticing him at a very young age to a craftsman (who, in some cases, was the father). Virtually no one in the Western world does that anymore. In the Western world, "teaching a trade" means providing your child with an education that equips him to viably function in our civilization. The overwhelming majority of American yeshiva students receive valid high school diplomas and are fully literate and functional. (Granted, not every yeshiva does a great job, and not every student does well. That has been true throughout history as well.)<BR/><BR/>The only factor that is missing is a college education. Being that, according to the <A HREF="http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-24.pdf" REL="nofollow">2000 Census</A>, only 24% of Americans had completed even a bachelor's degree (about 52% have attended "some college or more"), it is certainly debatable if we can truly consider this an obligation. There is no basis in halacha or hashkafa for only accepting a professional career as a valid parnassa.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27106600561977252112008-10-03T01:05:00.000+03:002008-10-03T01:05:00.000+03:00Earners,Had you not written your first comments, t...Earners,<BR/><BR/>Had you not written your first comments, then your last comments would carry more weight as they ought to be explored if the kollel system is overly abused and especially in today's situations if it is proper live in a fashion where the affluence of the past may be a memory.<BR/><BR/>But your first comments really attest to Lazera's point that there may be something beyond objectivity which drives your opposition to the kollel system. For whether or not you may find that amongst their population there is a percentage that went off the derech due to the hardships of kollel lifestyle; the truth will probably incline towards the opposite of your assertions, for propbably it is precisely amongst children of kollel yungerleit that there is the lowest number of off the derech for they do imbue to their offspring a life of torah and mitzvot with a greater intensity and greater level of commitment and belief.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13239939585894453892008-10-03T00:35:00.000+03:002008-10-03T00:35:00.000+03:00The concept of "Haredi Harvard", the Lithuanian ye...The concept of "Haredi Harvard", the Lithuanian yeshiva began in Europe about 150 years ago in response to Haskala and in order to discourage young men from attending university. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is time to accept that the Jewish people cannot support a significant percentage of families whose head of households do not work. <BR/><BR/>The affluence of the last generation of American Jews is now a memory. If we will expect women to support large families, we will have to repeal the Takana against marrying more than one wife because statistically women earn significantly less on average than men. <BR/><BR/>The system is bankrupt and it is not fair to raise our sons without a parnassa (which is the same as raising him to be a criminal) or our daughters to be beggars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10758463970011412822008-10-02T21:57:00.000+03:002008-10-02T21:57:00.000+03:00Earner said... Our children who are off the derech...Earner said... <BR/><I>Our children who are off the derech are the products of the chinuch of our kollel yungerleit.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know what this means. Perhaps you could explain the mechanism by which kollel yungerleit are causing children to go off the derech.<BR/><BR/>The overwhelming majority of young people from Orthodox homes today are not "off the derech." This is a significant improvement over the situation of roughly 50-60 years ago, when most young people from Orthodox homes in America were abandoning Orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>The rise of the major yeshivos and kollelim has been paralleled by a great improvement in the Orthodox Jewish community's ability to keep its children within the fold. I would argue the two are related.<BR/><BR/>Also, I doubt that one could reasonably claim that there is a greater proportion of young people abandoning Orthodoxy in those communities that stress kollel, than in those communities that do not.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>A person who takes tzedaka for himself or his family to live on is not a kosher witness because his judgment is compromised. This was discussed in Hok L'Yisrael.</I><BR/><BR/>That is not a useful reference (Chok l'Yisrael is five fat, densely printed volumes). Can you say where in Chok l'Yisrael? Or, better, what source was Chok l'Yisrael quoting? (Chok l'Yisrael, in of itself, is not a source for anything. It is a likut.)<BR/><BR/>Given that your claim appears to contradict the Shulchan Aruch, the likelihood is that you misunderstood the source you read.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>WIC, Section 8, welfare, Medicaid are certainly non Jewish charity programs because they are designed to support the truly destitute and those who are too sick to work. Recipients of these programs receive gov't aid publicly. </I><BR/><BR/>I alread gave my arguments why I disagree. You are responding by repeating your assertion without any additional evidence or response to my arguments.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Some Rabbis will not count a man who cannot be a kosher witness for a minyan. For example, a man who is retarded or blind. I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic who cannot fast on Yom Kippur as a kosher witness or for a minyan.</I><BR/><BR/>These are very dubious claims on several levels. Do you have a rabbi who has actually stated that a kollel yungerman cannot be counted for a minyan?<BR/><BR/>Quite frankly, it seems to me that you're arguments are rooted in a visceral dislike for the entire concept of kollel, rather than reason. While your comments have been instructive as illustrations of how irrational the hatred for bnei Torah can be, even within the Orthodox community, they have not actually contributed anything substantive to the discussion.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28378314526580226552008-10-02T18:35:00.000+03:002008-10-02T18:35:00.000+03:00mekubal said... I would have to say that learning ...mekubal said... <BR/><I>I would have to say that learning with a goal can be incredibly helpful. Personally I didn't "come into my own" in learning until I started learning for Semicha. As it was a goal as well as a way of actually measuring progress. Just a personal opinion though.</I><BR/><BR/>This is a very valid point and is, in my opinion, an element that is often missing in our yeshivos. Garnel's point regarding "aimlessness" has some validity, though generally not with long-term kolleleit (which was where he was applying it).<BR/><BR/>The question at hand is not the use of a goals as motivational tools to improve our limud haTorah but the establishment of goals as the primary purpose for our limud haTorah.<BR/><BR/>P.S. FKM, thanks.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9179530449620606052008-10-02T15:43:00.000+03:002008-10-02T15:43:00.000+03:00As much as I'm impressed with the responses themse...As much as I'm impressed with the responses themselves, I'm also impressed with the civility of LazerA's tone in dealing with such baseless accusations.<BR/>I hope I can learn from his example.Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10298176204317506218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56392745569912675832008-10-02T15:36:00.000+03:002008-10-02T15:36:00.000+03:00Our children who are off the derech are the produc...Our children who are off the derech are the products of the chinuch of our kollel yungerleit. <BR/><BR/>A person who takes tzedaka for himself or his family to live on is not a kosher witness because his judgment is compromised. This was discussed in Hok L'Yisrael. <BR/><BR/>WIC, Section 8, welfare, Medicaid are certainly non Jewish charity programs because they are designed to support the truly destitute and those who are too sick to work. Recipients of these programs receive gov't aid publicly. <BR/><BR/>Some Rabbis will not count a man who cannot be a kosher witness for a minyan. For example, a man who is retarded or blind. I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic who cannot fast on Yom Kippur as a kosher witness or for a minyan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6057385623845817802008-10-02T14:30:00.000+03:002008-10-02T14:30:00.000+03:00I would have to say that learning with a goal can ...I would have to say that learning with a goal can be incredibly helpful. Personally I didn't "come into my own" in learning until I started learning for Semicha. As it was a goal as well as a way of actually measuring progress. Just a personal opinion though.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.com