tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post1728096655845314358..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Evolution and Religion - an update by an evolutionary biologistDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger136125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55822678117290680492014-10-13T02:04:54.925+03:002014-10-13T02:04:54.925+03:00In the meantime, bring me even a small subset of y...In the meantime, bring me even a small subset of your so called experts that can respond to the problems that I raised in the main elements of the theory.FactsofLifenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75143878134650273632014-10-13T00:32:20.239+03:002014-10-13T00:32:20.239+03:001) Me and the rest of the scientific world.
2) Yo...1) Me and the rest of the scientific world. <br />2) You are trying to use an understanding of the complexity of organisms to disprove what the experts in the field believe? Fail.<br />3) irrelevant<br />4) They don't say it is neged hatorah. As has been confirmed by this blog.<br />5) coming from the guy who thinks he is smarter than the scientific consensus. Laughable.<br />6) does he.<br />7) if he is an expert in evolution i will listen to him discuss it. Until then what he says is not relevant. <br />8) do you know anything about darwin?obviously not<br />9)sorry. which rashi?<br />10) maybe you are the one who can't comprehend it...<br /><br />don't bother replying.davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82900363730336999312014-10-13T00:19:13.764+03:002014-10-13T00:19:13.764+03:00I will call your bluff. Please send me links to th...I will call your bluff. Please send me links to the huge amount of scientific articles published by this huge society stating that believe that life did not evolve.davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18889932007305573782014-10-12T17:58:24.881+03:002014-10-12T17:58:24.881+03:00First of all, they are physicists from Oxford. And...First of all, they are physicists from Oxford. And they have no problem rethinking the Copernican Principle if they have to. And yes, all Copernicus was "mechadeish" was that the planets, including the Earth, revolve around the sun, and not the Sun and the planets around the Earth. But the extension of his "chiddush," which is termed here "the Copernican Principle" is that the Earth is not at all at the center of the Universe, but rather rotates around the Milky Way Galaxy, which is also not the center of the Universe. By the way, it is much more scientifically difficult to propose that the earth is near the center of the universe than it is to propose that the earth is at the center of the solar system. So if you understand that they would be able to accept the earth being at the center of the Universe, then you should surely understand it would be no problem whatsoever for them to accept the earth being at the center of the solar system.Natnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4174816700462288292014-10-12T12:56:33.154+03:002014-10-12T12:56:33.154+03:00Nat,
the link you supplied is very interesting, bu...Nat,<br />the link you supplied is very interesting, but they are not saying what you think they are saying.<br />Aslo, they are just 3 guys, not every PhD astrophysicists. they have a Hiddush. They are not "gedolim" in the world of physics.<br />What they are saying is the location of the earth may be somewhere int he middle of the universe we know. They are not saying that the sun revolves around the earth. These are 2 different concepts. The Copernical principle he mentions is that earth does not occupy any particularly relevant place in the universe. They are not discussing the sun and which revolves around which.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88668237667775843562014-10-12T03:29:13.120+03:002014-10-12T03:29:13.120+03:00He used to sign his name followed by "The Eng...He used to sign his name followed by "The Engineer." And since I do not care to repeat myself, please see my reply to Eddie's reply.Natnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69243797105810058872014-10-08T17:32:02.992+03:002014-10-08T17:32:02.992+03:00@ Nat "Anyone with a PhD in astrophysics will...@ Nat "Anyone with a PhD in astrophysics will tell you that there is nothing <br />wrong whatsoever with looking at the sun as revolving around the earth, <br />as it says in the Torah and the Rambam."<br /><br />That is a fallacious claim, as are most Yeshiva claims about science. There may be the odd drop out who did a Phd in maths then went to BT yeshiva, and is then purported to hold a PhD in Physics. <br />Prof Nathan Aviezer, who is a real physicist, does not accept the Rebbe's claim, and totally trashes it. Aviezer is frum.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15709198358784982502014-10-08T16:45:00.450+03:002014-10-08T16:45:00.450+03:00@T Jew - self defense is allowed Stop your "r...@T Jew - self defense is allowed Stop your "righteous" attacks and that will solve your problem.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-34875114862379208052014-10-08T13:50:54.578+03:002014-10-08T13:50:54.578+03:00Daas Torah, notice any contradiction here?
Tzadok...Daas Torah, notice any contradiction here?<br /><br />Tzadok: "Sir I call you that (ie Sheker Jew Sr.)"<br /><br />Daas Torah: "Try writing without ad hominem attacks"TruthJewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89343918156609429752014-10-08T12:11:59.924+03:002014-10-08T12:11:59.924+03:00To David,
Due to the time restraints of erev yom...To David,<br /><br /><br />Due to the time restraints of erev yom tov I can only skim comments and offer a brief reply. My one point is that with 'regular' laws of nature, the end result is built into the system -- that is not the case with the mechanism of evolution.<br /><br /><br />Have to go -- have a chag sameach.<br /><br /><br />All the best,<br /><br /><br />MosheMoshe @ MoreThinkinghttp://morethinking.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78232164560052273232014-10-08T10:24:53.552+03:002014-10-08T10:24:53.552+03:001. If you can't understand the difference betw...1. If you can't understand the difference between Pythagorus's theorem and "proofs of evolution" you need to have your head examined. <br /><br />2. Since you have trouble understanding, when I say "old proofs," I mean 1) that these proofs have long since been thoroughly debunked and 2) that these were the proofs given when scientific knowledge was still relatively primitive and it may have been possible for someone to believe, using a wild stretch of the imagination, that living things could have evolved. The complexity of any organism as understood by today's scientists totally removes any possibility of any contemplation of evolution through genetic mutation, even with the wildest imagination.<br />3. Are you aware that most scientists not only believe in evolution, but they are also irreligious. If they spend their lives searching for the truth, how come they have not found G-d?<br />4. I am still waiting for you to give me your list of rabbis who believe in evolution, as well as something from Aryeh Kaplan where he says that he believes in evolution. <br /><br />5. I am still waiting to hear about your scientific credentials. So far, you can not even tell the difference between the Pythagorean theorem and the theory of evolution. The truth is that I can tell that you do not have any. It is easy to tell when someone is getting all of his information from Google and Wikipedia. <br /><br />6. The Rabbi who I referenced, since you have obviously not heard of him due to your ignorance, knows more about science and worldly matters than most people. That brings me to wonder if you are even an Orthodox Jew, or just a formerly religious Jew who has somehow found this blog. Because that would explain a lot. <br />7. I had the courtesy to spend the time listening to the person who you referenced in your post. It would be nice if you had the same courtesy. <br /><br />8. Since you are unaware, the entire stated goal of the early evolutionists was to present an alternate explanation for the origin of life that excluded G-d.<br />9. I was also waiting to see if you were able to find that Rashi. <br /><br />10. Obviously Rabbis can be wrong. Otherwise you would never have two rabbis arguing. Obviously one is right and one is wrong. The point is that the Torah is never wrong. And the Gemara is part of the Torah. Therefore if the Gemara says something that you do not comprehend, it has to be understood, not dismissed.Natnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26244470872740974702014-10-08T03:14:59.579+03:002014-10-08T03:14:59.579+03:00I don't work by consensus when scientific logi...I don't work by consensus when scientific logic proves that the theory is a total fiction. There is a huge society of highly trained scientists that don't believe in unfettered evolution. The evolution hard liners are the ones that are blind to evidence and won't accept the possibility of divine involvement.<br /><br />I see no need for evolutionary theory but it might be possible under G-d's direction.<br /><br />You are correct in saying you don't have to disbelieve it on religious grounds.FactsofLifenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2043476383370204202014-10-08T01:37:44.509+03:002014-10-08T01:37:44.509+03:00Teshuvah Meahavah 1:134; Zecher Yehosaf, OC 104; S...<i>Teshuvah Meahavah 1:134; Zecher Yehosaf, OC 104; Shu”t Vela’asher Amar 15</i><br /><br /><br />Sir I call you that, because you repeatedly have lied about what I have said, and what I have or have not posted. When those lies are pointed out you have refused to retract or apologize.Rabbi Michael Tzadoknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43538795143702322772014-10-08T00:46:43.282+03:002014-10-08T00:46:43.282+03:00The Lubavicher Rebbe also possessed a degree in El...<i>The Lubavicher Rebbe also possessed a degree in Electrical Engineering from the Sorbonne, which you do not.</i><br /><br />No he didn't. Every independent biography of him has said that simply was not true, but was a an... exaggeration made by his followers.<br /><br /><i>Anyone with a PhD in astrophysics will tell you that there is nothing wrong whatsoever with looking at the sun as revolving around the earth, as it says in the Torah and the Rambam.</i><br /><br />Rav Ovadia ZTzUK"L, and my own Rosh Yeshiva say that it is kefira to ascribe such silliness to the Torah. <br /><br />As far as PhD in astrophysics, yeah I know a few... My roommate in Uni went on to get his PhD in astrophysics and is a completely frum Jew. He very strongly feels that the Rebbe was mistaken.Rabbi Michael Tzadoknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69359184918597426722014-10-07T23:48:56.927+03:002014-10-07T23:48:56.927+03:00fact of life: there is no need to disregard that l...fact of life: there is no need to disregard that life evolved on religious grounds so i will follow the scientific consensus whilst you follow that lone (non scientific) voice.davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42277418018353601242014-10-07T23:24:15.284+03:002014-10-07T23:24:15.284+03:00You make me laugh.
"old proofs". Pythago...You make me laugh.<br />"old proofs". Pythagoras proved a2+b2=c2 over two thousand years ago. The age of a proof doesn't mean the proof is bad, it means the people who still won't listen have their head in the sand.<br />"People like this". Scientists. All the scientists. Thousands of people who spend their lives studying in order to find truths. <br /><br />And then we have you. Even though clearly the possibility that life may have evolved does not go against the torah, according to multiple gedolim, as has been confirmed by the author of this blog, you continue on a religious crusade insisting that you know best and all other opinions must be wrong. Every religious jew is brought up knowing that there are hidden meanings to the Torah, kabalistic truths that we are not party to yet even though you, me and most people alive today have no idea what they are you insist that you still know the ultimate truth. <br /><br />What traditions of my religion are you referring to? The fact that the rambam says beraishis is not to be taken literally? That if plato's view of the eternal universe could be rationally argued there would be no problem of believing in it according to the torah! That the ramban says that through all of creation only on speck was ever actually created. That kabalists know of previous worlds whatever that mean. That the rishonim discuss how even in beraishis itself there are two versions of creation. That there are gedolim who in black and white say that evolution doesn't contradict the Torah. That the gemara admits that rabbis can be wrong when it comes to science. <br />I don't know what closed minded religion you belong to but these are my traditions. <br /><br />I have no intention of listening to a rabbi go on about what he knows nothing about. Do you know why? Because as far as I am concerned there is no conflict between the Torah and science and i therefore have no need to listen to a rabbi bash science as if my religion depends on breaking it. Because it doesn't.davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23873728615267772462014-10-07T22:53:52.586+03:002014-10-07T22:53:52.586+03:00I understand what you are saying. With evolution G...I understand what you are saying. With evolution God is unnecessary. <br />But then with nature He is also unnecessary. Think about it. <br />According to the ramban, everything is technically a miracle but for the most part they conform to the rules (cause and effect) of nature. According to the rambam the rules of nature were fixed and sometimes God intercedes. Either way, what connects God to a certain result or moment in history. There were huge gaps during which the world ran on auto pilot! What connects God to say, the giving of the Torah through moshe? That fact that moshe was born to receive it is the result of generations of people from adam to amram living their lives in the natural world following the natural order. If one ancestor would have had an argument with his wife one night maybe the line would be completely different! One different random mutation and...<br /><br />Do you see what I am trying to say? This is all really an issue of divine providence. What connects God to anything when there is nature, free will, chance...<br />The issue you have is not one with evolution.davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23827776607335100852014-10-07T22:11:13.670+03:002014-10-07T22:11:13.670+03:00You are basically saying that there is no such thi...You are basically saying that there is no such thing as divine providence. Nature also acts on 'its own' but we as Jews still believe that God can tweak things for various specific reasons. Of course it is much more complicated depending on whether you follow the rambam or ramban (or someone else) but in general they all agree that there is the natural system that works (as if) by itself, randomly but God is still in charge. <br />Evolution fits right in with the rest of nature; a system that works (as if) randomly but God is really still all over it.davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83319528882690782952014-10-07T21:44:46.162+03:002014-10-07T21:44:46.162+03:00Seems like the derech eretz rules never seem to ap...Seems like the derech eretz rules never seem to apply to the "mekubal" here.TruthJewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70724587078916829242014-10-07T21:20:27.224+03:002014-10-07T21:20:27.224+03:00@ TruthJew - if you acted with Moshe's derech ...@ TruthJew - if you acted with Moshe's derech eretz your comments would also not be rejected. Try writing without ad hominem attacksDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66591179190274185152014-10-07T21:16:58.045+03:002014-10-07T21:16:58.045+03:00@db you do not understand carbon dating.
It shoul...@db you do not understand carbon dating.<br /><br />It shouldn't make a difference where the grass is located. Grass at the side of the road would not date as being millions of years old.<br /><br />Your other points of what HaShem could have done - doesn't invalidate views that don't accept the Christian view that G-d created the world in order to deceive man.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73765572252530903052014-10-07T20:33:41.905+03:002014-10-07T20:33:41.905+03:00Moshe, keep challenging the mekubal here and your ...Moshe, keep challenging the mekubal here and your comments will get blocked (like some of mine are), or better yet, you'll win the title of "Sheker Jew Sr." on this blog!TruthJewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43907049145650996782014-10-07T20:18:24.740+03:002014-10-07T20:18:24.740+03:00The Lubavicher Rebbe also possessed a degree in El...The Lubavicher Rebbe also possessed a degree in Electrical Engineering from the Sorbonne, which you do not. The Lubavicher Rebbe also was a genius, which you are not. Anyone with a PhD in astrophysics will tell you that there is nothing wrong whatsoever with looking at the sun as revolving around the earth, as it says in the Torah and the Rambam.Natnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35385932482107267942014-10-07T20:15:09.618+03:002014-10-07T20:15:09.618+03:00Whoever wrote the Torah? You mean G-d? I sure hope...Whoever wrote the Torah? You mean G-d? I sure hope so. . .Natnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6749427649909182702014-10-07T20:14:08.852+03:002014-10-07T20:14:08.852+03:00I will explain to you one reason why it makes a di...I will explain to you one reason why it makes a difference. If someone does something for you, it is proper to recognize what that person has done for you. This is a basic principle known as Hakarat Hatov. If you went out of your way to do a great favor for someone, you would be very hurt and upset if the person denied that you did anything or minimized what you did in the slightest. This world, including atomic and nuclear structures, the science of molecular interactions, cells, cellular metabolism, our DNA, etc, etc, etc, were all created by G-d with infinite wisdom. For you to then turn around to G-d and say, "what did you do for me, really?" And that all of this occurred through a series of random genetic mutations is the height of kefiyas tov and is the antithesis to a proper, meaningful Torah education.Natnoreply@blogger.com