tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post1719057984495014202..comments2024-03-19T00:38:47.904+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Elul! Holiness and Yet Strife in Israel Rav Dovid EidensohnDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83486103898797515982019-09-15T02:01:20.866+03:002019-09-15T02:01:20.866+03:00A very famous Rav supported the Zionist project, a...A very famous Rav supported the Zionist project, and defended even the secular Jews in Eretz Yisrael, who were working the land. Many people complained to him about defending the secularists, but he said they are involved in the mitzvah of building up the Land.<br />Now we have had prolonged discussions about Rav Kook's views, and why some apparently quesiton his Orthodoxy because he gave Tocheicha at the opening of the Hebrew U, or gave a hesped for Herzl.<br />My story is about a very great gadol Hador from Latvia. Rav Kook, being a Latvian, tried to see something positive about every jew, which is not always possible in the hareidi world. But the Gadol hador was considered greater than his contemporaries, even the Chafetz Chaim and Rav Chaim disagreed with him, but still accepted him as the gaon hador.<br />Alas,I am not talking about rav Kook. I am talking about Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, the Ohr sameach, whose chiddushei Torah amazed even rav Chaim Soloveitchik ztl. It was Rav meir Simcha who saw the mitzva of even the secular zionista who were building up EY! He was not a Rosh Yeshiva, but a community Rav, but his views were sought by the generation, because of his Tzidkus and gadlus.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50828318890665307572019-09-09T01:50:20.707+03:002019-09-09T01:50:20.707+03:00thank you, a very interesting piece
In Meah Shea...thank you, a very interesting piece<br /><br /><br />In Meah Shearim, they run gasoline fueled generators to produce electricity - that is something they pull off within that small community, but that is it.<br />But it's not just Shabbat, since even safek pikuah nefesh, and you can violate the Shabbat.<br />Hareidi world stems from small shtetles around Eastern Europe, again like Meah Shearim. <br /><br />One great Talmid Chacham who was Rav of the army, was forced to draw upon Tenach, to deal with the issues that come up in wartime, since there wasn't enough information in Shas. Even shas is incomplete - in that several orders of Mishnah never developed a Gemara on them. How then, can the reliance on Shas and Shulchan Aruch be sufficient to deal with all possible situations?Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31827817978779054902019-09-08T15:30:35.712+03:002019-09-08T15:30:35.712+03:00See http://ajewwithquestions.blogspot.com/2016/09/...See http://ajewwithquestions.blogspot.com/2016/09/can-modern-state-be-run-according-to.htmlMarty Blukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12533037031344680732019-09-08T14:25:57.237+03:002019-09-08T14:25:57.237+03:00I don't think you understand the halacha or th...I don't think you understand the halacha or the TeNaKha<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />IN the Tenakh, there were situations which were far mroe secular or shal we say evil than today. Look at queen Jezebel for example, murdering the neviim, chasing Eliyahu into the desert. Idolatry was all the rage. there is no actual idolatry in Israel today, perhaps the secular atheists, but they don't worship graven images.<br /><br /><br />From Rambam in Hilchot Melachim :<br /><br /><br />11;1 - <br /><br /><br /> as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states:<br /><br /><br />God will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will <br />again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, God will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Ch.12 ; 2<br /><br /><br />Our Sages taught: "There will be no <br />difference between the current age and the Messianic era except the emancipation from our subjugation to the gentile kingdoms."<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />you see, the central foundation of Messianic age, as per halacha, is an independent Jewish state. When Moshaich ben David arrives is not specificed, it is a long , natural historical process.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />(Hal. 1 - Do not presume that in the Messianic <br />age any facet of the world's nature will change or there will beinnovations in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.)Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52923503100614896942019-09-08T10:04:28.031+03:002019-09-08T10:04:28.031+03:00Galus is not only physical. Galus from the Shechin...Galus is not only physical. Galus from the Shechina is Galus. Without the Bais Hamikdash we remain in Galus. The creation of a State did not magically end the Galus; neither does the population growth. Did the Rabbis of Sfas hundreds of years ago claim the Galus was over? Did the followers of the Gra who made Aliya claim the Galus ended? Curious that Jews, some of whom participated in ripping Shabbos observance away from new immigrants and even sometimes ripping their children away, claim Galus is over and suddenly it's over.Joseph Orlowhttp://www.journalinginamerica.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35585300340055728002019-09-08T01:23:57.504+03:002019-09-08T01:23:57.504+03:00Many Hareidim mock /attack heter mechira, but are ...Many Hareidim mock /attack heter mechira, but are there any who forbid heter Iska /prozbul? <br /><br />Any hareidim who tell their businessmen to forgive their loans every 7 years?Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41201348785916783082019-09-08T01:20:00.056+03:002019-09-08T01:20:00.056+03:00That's right - the Modern/Zionist Orthodox are...That's right - the Modern/Zionist Orthodox are only "Orthodox" when it comes to a PR job like this. When the hareidim are discussing thier Kashrus, their conversions, their yeshivas, then they are reform, or Amalek.<br />One Shas leader called those who wear knitted kippa "Amalek", because one politician wants to recruit hareidim into the army.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4683681605774472412019-09-06T19:07:01.760+03:002019-09-06T19:07:01.760+03:00I'd like to see a beit hamikdash, but it's...I'd like to see a beit hamikdash, but it's not practical today. It might be in 50, 100 years, even before the moshiach. It's not academic.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59297616633761910262019-09-06T18:14:34.109+03:002019-09-06T18:14:34.109+03:00I wouldn't accept your interpretations of what...I wouldn't accept your interpretations of what is Torah compliant.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73893591115354172762019-09-06T18:13:26.040+03:002019-09-06T18:13:26.040+03:00Does that include coerced gittin?
I wouldn't ...Does that include coerced gittin? <br />I wouldn't want to be coerced by people in the eidah. They don't like being coerced into the mitzva of the army. <br />YOU are speaking of a halachic state. I think that's total fantasy. Even Hizkiyahu hamelech was unable to coerce everyone to keep pesach, mitzvot. The secular tribes mocked him. <br />A halachic / shulchan Aruch state is impossible. It will collapse.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46712838814237366782019-09-06T18:11:45.740+03:002019-09-06T18:11:45.740+03:00Man, you are funny.
"Orthodox Jews are perfec...Man, you are funny.<br />"Orthodox Jews are perfectly capable of running the country, and have demonstrated this by being part of the parliamentary process"<br />Haredim being "part of a the parliamentary process" and actually aspiring to and demonstrating national leadership are two very different things. They don't have leadership aspirations. And philosophically, they cannot. They view themselves as a minority being hosted by a foreign govt, inside a foreign entity (until moschiach comes, of course), just like if they lived in North America, Europe, or Timbuktu. The demographics don't magically change that, no matter how high they get. And as they get higher, you will also see more factions develop so that they can remain special interest groups. <br /><br /> "Orthodox Jews are an integral part of the army,"<br /><br />It's hilarious when haredim try to take credit to their society for things that the national religious are doing by using a blanket term like "orthodox" to combine everyone into one camp. Meanwhile, back in reality, the haredi leadership despises the national religious camp (and they spread that sentiment to the rank and file yeshiva man), and haredi society not only expresses hatred for the army but even for its own sons who dare to sign up for it and get attacked by their own communities. What a disgrace. <br /><br />The rest of your post is much of the same theme, but these two misleading comments really stood out.BiotechObservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69338076642556552622019-09-06T17:59:38.104+03:002019-09-06T17:59:38.104+03:00You ignored his words "כשידינו תקיפה".
I...You ignored his words "כשידינו תקיפה".<br />Is that the situation today?<br />If no, then it's an academic discussion.<br /><br /><br />You sound like you're opposed to having a fully Torah<br />compliant society, which is not considered politically correct in today's day and age. But the Torah is timeless, immutable, and eternally relevant.<br /><br /><br />If you're opposed to having a Torah society, there's a good<br />chance that you won't be invited to be part of it. But don't be offended. After all, you also wouldn't want to live in a society where Beis Din will have the power to coerce you to do any of the mitzvos you may not be keeping.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-5471590296435016862019-09-06T17:38:07.079+03:002019-09-06T17:38:07.079+03:00Ramchal teaches me to ignore the author of a state...Ramchal teaches me to ignore the author of a statement, and look at the content instead. besides, you cited this to buttress your own position.<br /><br /><br /><br />It is not purely academic, it is practical. he is talking about the time when you have an Erdogan-like control over the State. It is impractical in a different sense, since in Turkey and Iran, which are models for the Judeo-Islam relgiion, even the extremists see it as a "mitzvah" to have a military and to serve in it, whereas in hareidi extremism, they do not. Since there would be no Hareidi police or military, they would not have control of the state. hence no prisons either.<br /><br /><br />but none of this is the view of the mainstream Hareidi leadership like the Chazon ish, Rav Moshe , Rav Henkin, Rav Meltzer all ztl.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10655714606430776942019-09-06T17:04:07.736+03:002019-09-06T17:04:07.736+03:00Those were not my words. Those are the words of Ra...Those were not my words. Those are the words of Rav Sternbuch, who is also NOT calling to do so today. <br /><br />He’s discussing this purely as a theoretical academic question, what would be the halacha IF ידינו תקיפה, when we all know that it NOT the situation today.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47248637109485124092019-09-06T16:56:58.141+03:002019-09-06T16:56:58.141+03:00ואם היתה השאלה באה לפני בי"ד כשידינו תקיפה, ה...ואם היתה השאלה באה לפני בי"ד כשידינו תקיפה, היו כופין אותו <br />בכהאי גוונא אם אינו רוצה לשמוע, שהיו סוגרין אותו בחדר שלא יבוא לידי <br />עבירה.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78566473426674790272019-09-06T16:54:34.054+03:002019-09-06T16:54:34.054+03:00I stand behind my comments and don't deny them...I stand behind my comments and don't deny them.<br />You simply continue to misunderstand what was was written.<br />Nowhere in my words I there a CALL to imprison all secular Jews. <br />That is slanderous LIE.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80610129427899648792019-09-06T16:50:25.934+03:002019-09-06T16:50:25.934+03:00History is very relevant, but not to this discussi...History is very relevant, but not to this discussion, which is focused on Israel’s future, and the role that Israel's Haredi parties are taking in it.<br /><br />I see that Orthodox Jews are becoming more and more experienced in running a country, and look forward to the State of Israel becoming more and more Torah compliant. This will gradually happen with the decline of the secularists, and Orthodox Jews achieving a greater foothold in Israeli society.<br /><br />According to Torah law, the death penalty for the capital crimes listed in the Torah, can only be administered by a Sanhedrin. Since there is no recognized Sanhedrin today and there also will not be one until Moshiach comes, the discussion is therefore moot.<br /><br />The Torah has guidelines as to how a Jewish army is meant to be run. The concern for “Pikuach Nefesh” overrides any Shabbos issues that may present themselves. <br /><br />You are correct that the secularists would not accept a halachic state, which is why I noted (#4) that taking the reins of power at this time is impossible.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75590131441948468682019-09-06T16:32:43.561+03:002019-09-06T16:32:43.561+03:00below is the discussion, so please clarify what yo...below is the discussion, so please clarify what you said:<br /><br /> IsraelReader Kalonymus Anonymus • 23 days ago <br /><br /><br />If<br /> you understood the severity of sinning, you would agree that it's <br />better to be locked up in a cell, and avoid sin, then to walk around <br />free, and sin.1 <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Reply<br /><br /><br /> Kalonymus Anonymus IsraelReader • 20 days ago <br /><br /><br />"If you understood the severity of sinning, you would agree that it's <br />better to be locked up in a cell, and avoid sin, then to walk around <br />free, and sin."<br /><br /><br />The<br /> Talmud in Sotah speaks about "makkot perushin" and how they destroy the<br /> world. It is precisely this type of religiosity that you and many <br />others adhere to, a.k.a chasid shoteh. Be frum tot he point where it <br />kills you, destroys you, and your family. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> IsraelReader Kalonymus Anonymus • 20 days ago • edited <br /><br /><br />More name calling...<br />http://www.hebrewbooks.org/...<br />תשובות והנהגות כרך א סימן תעו<br /><br /><br />שאלה: יהודי תפוס בבית סוהר האם להשתדל להוציאו משם אף שיעבור בזה על איסור נדה באשתו<br /><br /><br />שמעתי<br /> ממקור מוסמך שביקשו מרבינו החזו"א זצ"ל להשתדל ולפעול עבור אחד שנידון <br />למאסר לזמן ארוך, ושאל האם הוא שומר על טהרת המשפחה, והשיבו לו שלא שומר <br />ונסתלק ולא רצה לעסוק בשחרורו, וראויים הדברים לגאון בישראל כמותו!<br /><br /><br />וכיוצא<br /> בו אני נוהג בעזהשי"ת כשמבקשים ממני לסדר שלום בית אצל חפשיים אני נמנע <br />כיון שמסייע בזה לעבור על איסור נדה, וכבר דרשו חז"ל (שבועות מז ב) לא תנאף<br /> לא תנאיף לא לסייע לניאוף.<br /><br /><br />ויש להטעים הדבר שבעצם במ"ע קיימא לן <br />(כתובות פו ב) מכין אותו עד שתצא נפשו, ופירשו המפרשים דלפני שעבר גם על <br />ל"ת כופין עד שתצא נפשו למונעו, (עיין בר"ן חולין קל"ב: דגם בל"ת קודם שעבר<br /> מכין אותו עד שתצא נפשו כדי שלא יעבור, וכן פשיטא ליה לרע"א בחידושי <br />כתובות פ"ו. דגם בל"ת אמרינן הך דינא דכופין אותו ומיהו הרמב"ן בשיר השירים<br /> ד', י"א כתב דרק במצות עשה כופין דחמיר מל"ת ומכין אותו עד שתצא נפשו, <br />משא"כ בל"ת. וכ"נ בקצוה"ח סי' ג' סק"ב במשובב שם). ואם כן כאן אף שסובל <br />במאסר, הלוא ראוי לו לסבול כן שמונעים אותו בכך לעבור על איסורי כרת דנדה <br />שדינו כעריות.<br /><br /><br />ולפי זה בנידון דידן אף שגזרו עליו מאסר חמש שנים אין <br />אנו מצווין להשתדל לשחררו, ולהיפך טוב שישב שמה ולא יעבור תדיר על איסור <br />כרת ר"ל, ואם היתה השאלה באה לפני בי"ד כשידינו תקיפה, היו כופין אותו <br />בכהאי גוונא אם אינו רוצה לשמוע, שהיו סוגרין אותו בחדר שלא יבוא לידי <br />עבירה. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Kalonymus Anonymus IsraelReader • 20 days ago <br /><br /><br />name calling? Oh, you don't like that part of the Talmud?1Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57458458660848612912019-09-06T16:24:26.718+03:002019-09-06T16:24:26.718+03:00History is very relevant. Typically, the sources t...History is very relevant. Typically, the sources that you run to use when it suits you, all become irrelevant when it doesn't suit you (eg the gemara, poskim, gedolim etc.)<br /><br /><br />Rav Shach was lukewarm to the State, but made a lot of noise in opposition to whatever they did. <br /><br /><br />I quote you "<b>4. Orthodox Jews have no opposition to running a purely halachic state</b>"<br /><br /><br />If the above is true, then you would not deem people like Bere, or lehavdil the Griz as "Orthodox", since he totally opposed the State. The Griz said that even if the Chofetz Chaim was running the country, it would still be assur. I am not sure what the current Eidah say or do not say, but in their heyday, Amram blau, and their other big names all opposed the State.<br /><br /><br />Which shows the absuridty of you claim. Orthodoxy is a very broad church, if I may use an English term. <br /><br />There is a large DL community, which itself has a spectrum of Hardal to MO, and they all see the religious significance of the State, and vary on having a halachic satte or not.<br />Similarly, there is a very wode spectrum in the Hareidi world, some begrudgingly accept teh State, some are happy but keep shtu, and some like the Belzer Rebbe and others would even celebrate.<br /><br /><br /><br />Then there ar limitations to halachic stae. What would be the punishment for hillul shabbes for example? Nobody in the Yeshiva world thinks we can administer the death penaly today. What about the army? Would the Hareidi leadership close it down completely or only on Shabbat? If the Hareidi Pm would prevent calling up any hareidi for the army, do you think the Secularists and the military would accept a halachic state? They would put a few tanks around the Knesset, or its new home in Bnei brak, and do a coup d'etat , like was done in Turkey many times.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75039424792615386662019-09-06T16:19:22.196+03:002019-09-06T16:19:22.196+03:00You're still slandering me, saying that I call...You're still slandering me, saying that I called to imprison all secular Jews. <br />That is LIE.<br />I'm not an Eidah person, nor their spokesperson.<br />Bringing in the Eidah is a straw man.<br />My comment was about the Haredi and religious parties in Israel.<br />What do you have to add to the discussion?IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18072259156612472622019-09-06T16:09:32.712+03:002019-09-06T16:09:32.712+03:00no, you said it is better to be in a prison than f...no, you said it is better to be in a prison than free to exercise free will. It was the specific case of whethe to intervene to free someone already in prison for an unspecified crime (in Zalman's case it was rape). <br /><br />However, you extended this to people who sin in general, eg mechalel shabbes.<br />However, thsi is all moot, since theEidah do not want political power in Israel, they oppose any jewish government prior to Moshiach. The Griz said that even if the Chofetz Chaim was running the country, it would still be assur.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28254255268067478102019-09-06T15:51:27.453+03:002019-09-06T15:51:27.453+03:00History is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
...History is totally irrelevant to this discussion.<br />Read my point number 4, which also held true in Rav Shach's days.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56209815275466128812019-09-06T15:47:38.760+03:002019-09-06T15:47:38.760+03:00So you're admitting that you misquoted me, and...So you're admitting that you misquoted me, and you also misunderstood the sefer who discussed this as a purely academic question.<br />I repeat:<br />I never called to imprison all secular Jews. That is LIE.IsraelReadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42781020592749424852019-09-06T15:42:50.248+03:002019-09-06T15:42:50.248+03:00Not really. In Oslo days, Rav Shach said it was as...Not really. In Oslo days, Rav Shach said it was assur to join labour government. Bibi's days are numbered, and likud have no replacement of his stature / gadlus. <br />Plus, the settlements are intrinsic to the right wing, whereas the hareidi parties could not care less about them.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73652249540746007732019-09-06T15:39:45.981+03:002019-09-06T15:39:45.981+03:00Yes, you said its better to be in a cell than to s...Yes, you said its better to be in a cell than to sin = secularism. You cited a teshuva where the meishiv jokes about imprisoning the secularists.Kalonymus Anonymusnoreply@blogger.com