tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post1030297596458764101..comments2024-03-29T06:06:58.796+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Sexual molestation is absolutely prohibited according to halacha.Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7370332714984910282013-09-03T01:17:49.319+03:002013-09-03T01:17:49.319+03:00one gets coreis one does not.
who gets the bigger...one gets coreis one does not.<br /><br />who gets the bigger gehenom. depends on the circumstance only hashem knows.nachmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43382727386851205022013-09-03T01:14:10.393+03:002013-09-03T01:14:10.393+03:00may I ask have you been personally affected by abu...may I ask have you been personally affected by abuse ?nachmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6274576659875986832009-02-17T10:07:00.000+02:002009-02-17T10:07:00.000+02:00So I learned, that in general, when people start i...<I>So I learned, that in general, when people start insulting you "You are to ignorant for me to explain you" it really means that the person insulting you does not know the answer and does not want to tell you.</I><BR/><BR/>I wonder what you would have said to R' Kaduri Z"L, who would say to people who asked too many questions, "You are not worthy to learn Kabblah, leave." Thus removing them from his Yeshiva. I have heard from students of his when he still taught at Beit E-l that he would do the same there, effectively kicking people out of someone else's Yeshiva. That can be independantly verified from R' Tzadok of Kosher Torah.com.<BR/><BR/>Or what you would have said to my first Magid Shiur at BMG who started the Zman by saying, "I will gladly answer any question you may have once you know enough to ask a proper question."<BR/><BR/>The truth is that if one is given too much information before a proper foundation is laid it can lead to confusion and even kefira. I have no intention of insulting you when I say that your level of learning is not on a par where it can easily enter this type of discussion. This is all in the realms of Dayyanim, which is far more learning than most Rabbis will ever do. Most Rabbis never spend any serious amount of time learning these laws, let alone trying to become expert in them. One can only become a Dayyan after become a Rav(a process that takes a number of years) then one has to have the ability(financial) and willingness to devote 10-15 more years to study of these sorts of laws before one can become fluent in them. Most other Semichut the Rabbinute gives a single exam, for Dayyanut there are five consecutive exams that one takes over a course of years when one has prepared appropriately for each. Personally I have taken and passed the first two, that has taken 4 years. So please excuse me or D"T if we tell you that you are swimming in deep waters, and possibly waters that are out of your depth.<BR/><BR/>I have endeavored to answer each of your questions, asking only that you actually thoroughly read the answers before making assumptions. You seem to want full and complete answers not just sources. The truth is because of the nature of the topic and the amount of information involved a full treatment cannot be done on a blog. Not only would an exhaustive treatment take ample space, it would, because of the public nature of the blog violate the prohibitions of teaching Torah to non-Jews.<BR/><BR/>I truly don't think that you fully grasp the complexity of your question, if for no other reason than you don't seem to understand the unfounded assumptions that you are basing it on. There are two parts to your question, one is halakhic and the other is haskafic. However, the hashkafa has to be settled before we move on to the halacha.<BR/><BR/>For instance you want a guilty party to have to make some kind of reparations for mental health care. You are assuming that mental health care is a valid form of healing and that it is in line with Torah values. Take for instance this:<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2G4_CeMCY<BR/><BR/>I post that because I know the Rosh Yeshiva he learned that from.<BR/><BR/>Then there is the perspective of others such as R' Mordechai Goldstein Shlit"a, who claims that psychology/psychiatry can diagnose accurate problems but is useless to resolve or heal them. He claims that is the shitta of the Yeshiva where he learned(Chafetz Haim), and has passed that on to each of his students at his own Yeshiva. Furthermore each of his former students that have started their own Yeshivas(at least each of the one's I have spent any time at) hold the same opinion. They have passed this on to their students, some of whom are Dayyanim that will hear cases. <BR/><BR/>On the other side of the spectrum you have R' Twerski(whom I personally agree with) and Nefesh. Each side believes that it is upholding Torah with its view points. Who is right who is wrong, who can decide? Both sides have Gedolim backing them.<BR/><BR/>Those view points will radically dertermine different paths and different solutions to the problems that you give. For instance if one does not believe in mental illness, but rather that "problems" are simply a lack of emunah, middot development and Torah Study, then for instance their is no such thing as a serial abuser who has a mental problem. Rather it is simply someone who has sinned, or who has not yet mastered the teivot. Thus why should they be imprisoned or punished? They need rather to be taught and helped. They need proper musar, and chizuk. Maybe they need to make a tikun for an aveira in a past life. You don't have to take my word for it, see the move "Trembling Before God." Granted it deals with homosexuality(though one of the individuals claims to have "improper feelings" for his school children) which is not classified as a mental illness, but nevertheless is a deviance according to Torah. You will see the variety of approaches portrayed there.<BR/><BR/>There are like streams of reasoning dealing with the victims, but because they disgust me I will not share them here. It is enough to say that there are Torah opinions that, because of their view on psychology and other things, essentially blame the victims for their ongoing problems.<BR/><BR/>Once those issues are sorted one can move on to halachic issues. As if the halacha was not already complex enough, you have to factor in the above into any decision of a B"D. Their Hashkafa will determine their interpretation of halacha. Simply look at the various posts on this blog about conversion to see how that plays out in a different realm of halacha. In general the less quantifiable a problem, the more complex will be the resulting halachic dispute.<BR/><BR/>Today because of our many sins we are lacking a true Sanhedrin, and true Semicha, thus making these things all the more complex. <BR/><BR/>Siman 1 of Choshen Mispat(the laws of Dayyanim, and consequently the first thing someone learns if they are on the path to being a Dayyan) states,<BR/><B>In our times, Dayanim are authorized to hear cases involving loans, inheritances and gifts, admission of debt, women’s claims to their Ketubah and claims of damage to personal property. These types of disputes arise very often and involve purported monetary loss to the claimant. These are<BR/>the two necessary criteria. Lacking one of them, the case is not heard. Thus, today’s Dayanim are not authorized to hear cases about types of disputes that do not arise so often, even cases which involve certain monetary loss to the claimant, such as when someone’s animal maliciously wounds someone else’s animal. Similarly, even if something<BR/>happens almost every day, if it not a matter of compensating monetary loss, the case cannot be heard. For example, if someone charges that his neighbor<BR/>secretly stole from him, the Dayanim can rule on the theft itself, but they are not authorized to rule that the thief pay the Torah’s fine for theft – kefel (paying double the principle). No cases regarding fines instituted by our Sages can be heard either, such as where somebody shouts into his neighbor’s ear and frightens him, for here, too, the claimant did not suffer monetary loss. So, too, if someone takes his hand and uses it to slap someone on the cheek, thereby causing his victim embarrassment, although Sages instituted that the aggressor must<BR/>pay a fine, the case is not heard today. The same applies to any case where, according to the law, the guilty party must pay more than the loss, or he need not compensate the loss completely (e.g. cases of half-damage payments). In all of the above, the only Dayanim who can hear and decide such cases are Mumchim (experts) and Semuchim (ordained judges), when their Semicha (ordination) was in the Land of Israel (today, however, there is no Semicha). The one exception<BR/>is half damage payments in cases of Tzrororos (“pebbles” cases.). The reason is that regarding tzrororos, the payment of half the damages is not regarded as a fine, but as partial compensation for monetary loss. If someone injures his fellow, judges who were not given Semicha in the Land of Israel cannot collect from him (nezek – damage payments), (tzar – payment for the victim’s pain), (pagam – payment for “blemish” to the victim), (boshess – payment for embarrassment) or (kofer – “redemption” if the victim died). On the other hand, such judges are able to collect from him (shayvess – compensation for lost work time) and (Ripui – compensation for medical expenses resulting from the injury).<BR/></B><BR/>Which effectively takes these cases, as standard fare, out of the hands of Dayyanim. As most of these cases involve Torah law and today's dayyanim cannot judge those things. If you have adequate ability to read Hebrew I would suggest that you go to your local Orthodox Rabbi and ask to borrow from him Choshen Mishpat in the Tur and the Shulchan Aruch. That will the first two Simanim(chapters) in each of those with their various commentaries will give you a good background and foundation for understanding all of this indepth.<BR/><BR/>Now just because these things are more or less, by standard course, out of the hands of Dayyanim does not mean that one can immediately go to the secular authorities. That is a determination that has to be made by a B"D, as is covered in Siman 2<BR/><B>Any Beis Din, even one whose judges lack semicha attained in the Land of Israel, if it sees the nation wantonly sinning (and emergency measures are necessary) (Tur), it can punish with death, monetary measures or other means of punishment, even in the absence of solid evidence. If the accused is strong and violent, the court can call in non-Jews to beat him. (The courts also have the power to divest people of their property, or destroy belongings, as the judges see fit as essential temporary measures to control the<BR/>generation) (Tur in the name of the Rambam, Laws of Sanhedrin Chap. 24). All of their actions must be for the sake of Heaven. Such powers, however, rest only<BR/>with the Gadol HaDor of the generation or with the city’s finest citizens when the community appoints them over them as a court.<BR/></B><BR/>The issues that arise here are manifold. First a B"D has to decide if this even applies to any particular case, and if molestaion merits the intervention based on the qualifier in the Shulchan Aruch. Second the decision of the B"D cannot become standard. These are after all emergency powers in time of need. Third any given solution is open to the discretion of the individual B"D, adn thus their hashkafic leanings, as discussed above. Fourth because each case has to be judged independantly, both from the point of halacha, but also on account of utilizing such emergency powers, standarized penalties and damages could never be assesed. Finally upon what criteria does a B"D judge damage and liability? Again this becomes as much a haskafic issue as a halachic one. If a particular B"D does not believe in mental illness, then they are not going to see any grave damage done. And even if they do see that damage has been done, how do they assess a non-Torah fine that is in keeping with such precepts of the Torah as not to overly burden an individual with a fine for the sake of bringing them to teshuva(see Rosh on Perek Merubah).<BR/><BR/>Those are just a sampling of the complexities that need be dealt with that you seem to be demanding a pat answer to. While declaring others ingnorant for not being able to rattle them off for you. Yet when people try to give you answers and explain the complexities you resort to insults and degradations while only half reading the answers that they give.<BR/><BR/>Thus this is the last answer you will recieve from me on this issue. I have better things to do with my time then to respond to someone who has no desire to listen.<BR/><BR/>From this point on, where this conversation is concerned, you are on ignore.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48947653560573061742009-02-16T22:13:00.000+02:002009-02-16T22:13:00.000+02:00Price of a Ketubah. Depends on which halachic aut...Price of a Ketubah. Depends on which halachic authority you follow and what the current price of silver is. As of 2002, it ran between $180 and $55,000. See <BR/>http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/KETUBAH.pdf<BR/><BR/>I have never claimed to be a Dayyan and thus expert on any of those laws. I have said repeatedly that I am currently learning Dayyanut which means i have a background in those laws. <BR/><BR/>It is sad you feel the need to insult even when one is trying to help you.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22353142265769851112009-02-16T21:02:00.000+02:002009-02-16T21:02:00.000+02:00PS: Mekubal: I do not take what you say for face v...PS: Mekubal: I do not take what you say for face value any more. Even if you claim to have a smicha and to be a "mekubal", I suppose that you are not competent enough in the relevent areas of halacha in order to speak about them with authority. <BR/><BR/>So I hear what you say, but I will not base my conclusions about <BR/>torah law on what you say. <BR/><BR/>I think this would be too unfair.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-851220104043900352009-02-16T20:53:00.000+02:002009-02-16T20:53:00.000+02:00Well: if you say that a beit din in our time is no...Well: if you say that a beit din in our time is not competent to impose damages in cases where bodily harm is involved, nor to handle criminal cases that involve bodily harm, I suppose that is the end of the parshe: Batey din not competent = Call the police.<BR/><BR/>My point is: the torah law system should not be abused to withhold compensation from the victim and punishment from the culprit.<BR/><BR/>My point is: the chareidi community has tools to make people comply, why do they not use them on sexual predators?<BR/><BR/>I remember reading a "Cherem announcement" in my own community, for a case that seemed completely unjustified to me according to the details I learned. Why is not at least a Cherem pronounced in such cases????<BR/><BR/>By the way: The Amish seem to face similar problems. They have "punishment system" that goes from grounding to temporary exclusion to definitive excommunication. They too prefer to settle their problems within their system rather than going to police. In cases of sexual abuse, this system revealed itself insufficient (in one case, the punishment pronounced for making tatoos (on oneself) seems to have been much harsher then the punishment of rape or even incestual rape). <BR/><BR/>If you want to learn more about it, I recommend "My autobiography" by David E. Yoder, available on http://www.amishdeception.com/Home.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15294430159553796202009-02-16T20:29:00.000+02:002009-02-16T20:29:00.000+02:00To how much would a Ketubah of a BEtulah amount in...To how much would a Ketubah of a BEtulah amount in modern terms, i.e. in US$ today?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4981044444688435332009-02-16T16:20:00.000+02:002009-02-16T16:20:00.000+02:00@dear mekubal,I read the tone you used with the ot...@dear mekubal,<BR/><BR/>I read the tone you used with the other bloggers, and I came to the conclusion it was not appropriate. <BR/><BR/>So I stopped worrying about you speaking like this to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52347843474164382942009-02-16T15:44:00.000+02:002009-02-16T15:44:00.000+02:00Shoshi,There is one other element that you seem to...Shoshi,<BR/><BR/>There is one other element that you seem to be missing. That is that even, assuming we could impose fines today, compensation as you are speaking is not part of Torah. <BR/><BR/>See the Rosh's comments on Perek Merubah of Bava Kama, he make's clear that the only reason for any fine is to bring the violator to Teshuva, and for that reason we should not make such fines excessive.<BR/><BR/>Even in your rape case above, the only fine that would be paid, if the couple were not married, is the Ketubah of the girl if she had been a Betulah. The idea of ongoing compensation, as you seem to want, is not found in the Torah.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6584926560719580622009-02-16T14:24:00.000+02:002009-02-16T14:24:00.000+02:00Shoshi,I did see the link. I followed the link I ...Shoshi,<BR/><BR/>I did see the link. I followed the link I read the article. That does not nullify my comment. It may have been better if you had emailed the link directly to Daas Torah with an explanation of why it is relevant to the overall discussion of abuse on his blog. Just for clarity I never said that you had a reading comprehension problem. I did say that you clearly did not read my one post in its entirety as you gave a rather hostile comment, <BR/><I>So give me a break. Don't forbid boy's choirs, as long as choir directors do not resort to castration in order to keep their "voice material" intact (c.f. catholic church in the 16/17. century).<BR/></I><BR/>When I had already stated that the low incidence of homosexual child molestation.<BR/><BR/>As far as conspiracy of silence I personally think that would make an excellent discussion. I have started along that path on a newer main post about the Nefesh conference. Feel free to join it there.<BR/><BR/>The immediate in your face appraoch that you use can be rather off putting. Here it did come across as hostile. I have tried repeatedly to answer your questions. If you still have others I would be glad to continue to try to answer your questions.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85530510219921262942009-02-16T11:02:00.000+02:002009-02-16T11:02:00.000+02:00"For instance you wanted to bring in the Vos iz na..."For instance you wanted to bring in the Vos iz naious. It probably would have been better, and perhaps would still be beneficial if you emailed the link to D"T and suggested that he make it a Main Post. Personally I think it would make a great main post."<BR/><BR/>I cited the exact source. (Who exactely has the reading comprehension problem here?) The main text on Vos is neyes is not on sexual abuse, but on the ban against Nuchem Rosenberg. <BR/>(You could have found out by following the link).<BR/><BR/>Among the commentators, there were some (I cited the numbers) who spoke about sexual abuse in their family and how it was dealt with.<BR/><BR/>I do not know if those commentators would agree for you to make a main post of their comments.<BR/><BR/>But you could take the problem as it stands: "The conspiracy of silence": how jewish education, rabbonim and their own conscience force persons who suffered sexual abuse into silence, which leaves them without compensation."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37460166579827137072009-02-16T10:27:00.000+02:002009-02-16T10:27:00.000+02:00Hi little Sheep,thanks for your support, I can rea...Hi little Sheep,<BR/><BR/>thanks for your support, I can really need it.<BR/><BR/>You know, I am used to understanding things that are not in my mother tongue and not in my "speciality". That's kind of my profession. <BR/><BR/>So I learned, that in general, when people start insulting you "You are to ignorant for me to explain you" it really means that the person insulting you does not know the answer and does not want to tell you. It's this "attack is the best defense strategy".<BR/><BR/>People who are really thoroughly knowledgeable in general know to explain their issues even to the simplest people, and they are not afraid of saying "I do not know the answer" when you hit incidentally on a question they do not know to answer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79724855541730894822009-02-16T07:20:00.000+02:002009-02-16T07:20:00.000+02:00woah. shoshi, why didn't i get linked to this? or ...woah. shoshi, why didn't i get linked to this? or did i get linked and not read the comments...<BR/><BR/>mekubal, just for clarity:<BR/>rabbanim who are quite knowledgeable in this area were consulted in my case. it was decided, after taking various factors into account, that we should not prosecute. the issue of the possibility of future offenses by "jack" is being dealt with.<BR/><BR/>shoshi, i think it would be prudent for you to tell the commenters here that neither english nor hebrew is your first language, and that may have contributed to the communication problems.<BR/><BR/>da'as torah, i'll admit, i'm not reading so well myself at the moment, so please correct me if i'm missing something, but i have a slight problem with this statement: "Even if they could institute such a procedure - where is the money coming from? You are talking about quite a bit of money - which the average molestor or sexual abuser doesn't have."<BR/><BR/>tell me, where do abuse survivors get this money then? i'm going to use myself as an example here, only because i know that i can answer any questions on my situation properly.<BR/><BR/>i'm in my twenties. i am unable to hold down a job due to PTSD from my abuse. (shoshi posted a link to my blog) i have no health insurance, and even if i did, mental health coverage is pretty bad.<BR/><BR/>expenses in the treatment of PTSD-(with insurance. i have not had many expenses since i lost my insurance, only because i had the Siyatta D'Shmaya to receive 14 weeks of free counseling. i will have unknown expenses when this runs out)<BR/>therapy, twice weekly: $420<BR/>psychiatrist, once monthly: $125<BR/>copays on medications, monthly: $15-$60<BR/>total: $560-$605<BR/><BR/>this does not include: transportation to and from therapy, extra medications because of changes, extra therapy/psychiatrist visits during crisis. <BR/><BR/>where does an unemployed individual get this money? in most cases, the perpertrator has a steady job. he is the one with the income. shouldn't HE be the one paying for the results of HIS actions?<BR/><BR/>i did not read the whole thread though, so maybe i'm missing some information here?little sheephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002942154389258717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44056996033268853142009-02-15T13:22:00.000+02:002009-02-15T13:22:00.000+02:00If I understand them right, there is no genuine di...<I>If I understand them right, there is no genuine distinction between<BR/>- consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape<BR/>- Forced oral sex and masturbation<BR/></I><BR/>There are major differences. All are forbidden, but the level to which they are forbidden differs. <BR/><BR/>To give you an example Homosexual sex carries a death penalty(no longer enforciable) for both parties. Homosexual rape carries a death penalty only for the rapist.<BR/><BR/>In more modern terms<BR/>If one masturbates and repents and wishes to do teshuva and make a tikkun according to the ARI, one needs to fast 84 days.<BR/><BR/>If one committs a homosexual act and after teshuva wishes to do a tikun he must fast 233 days.<BR/><BR/>If one raped someone, in addition to the above mentioned fasting, he can only secure a proper tikun when he secures true and complete forgiveness from the victim.<BR/><BR/>While according to the sources all of these things are Ossur, either from the Torah or from the Rabbis the full extent of their prohibition and consequence varies.<BR/><BR/>One cannot however compare eating bread on Pesach to these things. And the reasons once understood are profound. Eating bread involves a denial of the Exodus, and possibily a denial of the very existance of God. Spiritually these things are worlds(on a Kabbalistic level they are literally worlds apart) apart, to the point that is impossible to say that one is a graver aveirah than another. <BR/><BR/>The broader you make this topic the harder it will become to discuss. Please try to focus it down to something such as "ideal response" and "real response" that would at least help me to beneficially discuss this with you.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41520558230346853372009-02-15T13:05:00.000+02:002009-02-15T13:05:00.000+02:00Shoshi,This is the situation I was referring to, a...Shoshi,<BR/><BR/><I>This is the situation I was referring to, and it seems quite common to me, either in this set-up or without the intervention of a Rabbi, i.e. the person who suffered abuse just keeps quiet:<BR/><BR/>"...Molester who admitted was begging that his name should not be made public or that we should call the child abuse services. The rav that was involved also asked that we should be quiet."<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Sorry the problem here is mine. I am sure exactly what specific case that you are referring to.<BR/><BR/>I understand that this is an emotional issue for you, and I think that you have an ability to help many on this board understand how those who perhaps do not spend all of their time learning in depth halachic sources view the things that come out of our community.<BR/><BR/>However, it may be more conducive to the conversation if you slowed down in your posting some. <BR/><BR/>For instance you wanted to bring in the Vos iz naious. It probably would have been better, and perhaps would still be beneficial if you emailed the link to D"T and suggested that he make it a Main Post. Personally I think it would make a great main post.<BR/><BR/>Yes we do need to analyze the way our community deals with abuse. Yes your questions and what you bring to the discussion is relevant and will be helpful. Unfortunately, at least for me, it gets confusing when you post three or four things in rapid fire. It becomes hard to know where you are headed and how to give a cogent response.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85087567924293353782009-02-15T12:57:00.000+02:002009-02-15T12:57:00.000+02:00PS: This notwithstanding, it could be that the tor...PS: This notwithstanding, it could be that the torah and torah law contains the right tools to deal with the problem.<BR/><BR/>e.g. If the torah said: if someone rapes a girl who is not engaged, not married, he should either marry her (with her father's (and I suppose her consent) or pay her to compensate the loss of virginity"<BR/><BR/>and if you take it to mean today that he should pay her, every year of her remaining life, a bit more than the average salary in the us, adapted to the index (i.e. every year more, because of inflation), let's say $ 50'000 a year, plus healing costs, it could be an acceptable settlement.<BR/><BR/>So perhaps torah law contains the tools to be at the forefront to fight the problems of our society. <BR/><BR/>It's just that the rabbis should see it and enforce it.<BR/><BR/>I think, I have made my points now, so I will leave this blog before Daas torah or Mekubal start insulting me again, since I do not like it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67932348813810942672009-02-15T12:20:00.000+02:002009-02-15T12:20:00.000+02:00If on the "value scale"- eating bread on pessachis...If on the "value scale"<BR/>- eating bread on pessach<BR/>is equal or worse than<BR/>- raping a girl who is not nida, not engaged, not married"<BR/><BR/>I think the whole value system has a problem.<BR/><BR/>PS: This problem does not just arise within the system of jewish law. It is, in general, the kind of problems that "law philosophy" deals with: The legislator (or judge) defines a punishment for every single transgression, but problems can arise once you start comparing the punishments between them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-63379827837439389972009-02-15T11:36:00.000+02:002009-02-15T11:36:00.000+02:00shoshi said... PS: This is also where I see a p...shoshi said...<BR/><BR/> PS: This is also where I see a problem with the sources cited by Daas torah in this post:<BR/><BR/> If I understand them right, there is no genuine distinction between<BR/> - consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape<BR/> - Forced oral sex and masturbation<BR/> etc.<BR/>==============<BR/>I think are getting confused. Please try againDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47141483496846434122009-02-15T11:33:00.000+02:002009-02-15T11:33:00.000+02:00PS: This is also where I see a problem with the so...PS: This is also where I see a problem with the sources cited by Daas torah in this post:<BR/><BR/>If I understand them right, there is no genuine distinction between<BR/>- consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape<BR/>- Forced oral sex and masturbation<BR/>etc.<BR/><BR/>I do not say that this is what causes sexual abuse, because sexual abuse exists in every society, and abusers will take every excuse they can find.<BR/><BR/>But when you say "it is a mortal sin to be homosexual" "it is a mortal sin to masturbate", in some sense, it can happen that the young people loose the sense of priorities. "Be a homosexual, rape a boy, it all amounts to the same"...<BR/><BR/>You see what I mean?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80884770823906062522009-02-15T11:28:00.000+02:002009-02-15T11:28:00.000+02:00Abuser - manipulatorYou have to be aware that sexu...Abuser - manipulator<BR/><BR/>You have to be aware that sexual abusers are often very cunning manipulators, and they take advantage of whatever ideology to can to furhter their cause.<BR/><BR/>In the "sexual liberation movement" of 68, they just could say "don't be so old-fashioned".<BR/><BR/>In the context of a "more free sexual education", they could say "I just try to teach her what it is all about".<BR/><BR/>In the context of the frum community, they say "You are a mosser" "You will have problems with shidduchim if you tell" "I will have problems with shidduchim if you tell" "My family will suffer" "Your family will suffer" "Have merci on me and pardon me, I will not do it any more" "You should not be so cruel with me"<BR/>And since the victim was educated to be kind-hearted and forgiving, she will forgive indeed, without knowing really what is at stake, i.e. what damage she suffered in reality.<BR/><BR/>The abusers are even able to manipulate their therapists, and to go on molesting while they tell the therapists "I really understand I did something bad, etc".<BR/><BR/>The problem is, that the "subconscious" can play many tricks to the rabbis, therapists, parents, etc involved: <BR/>They really do not want that the issue is publicised, for various reasons (reputation of the community, repercussions on family, etc). So they tell themselves: anyway, it is also better for the person who suffered abuse that nothing comes out. <BR/><BR/>This way, they fool themselves, and often the person who suffered abuse has to pay the price.<BR/><BR/>Because the frum community does not have much patience with people who deviate from the norm.<BR/><BR/>Just take these two cases:<BR/>1) How would a frum community deal with a young girl who had a (consesual) romantic liaison with someone and is pregnant?<BR/><BR/>I suppose: scandal, ousted, sent abroad, etc.<BR/><BR/>2) In the case above the Rabbis agreed that a person who suffered sexual abuse should remain silent, so as not to destroy the "reputation of the abuser".<BR/><BR/>So where is justice?<BR/>Where are the values of this community?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59974433892714929382009-02-15T11:16:00.000+02:002009-02-15T11:16:00.000+02:00http://www.vosizneias.com/18474/2008/07/24/stamfor...http://www.vosizneias.com/18474/2008/07/24/stamford-hill-london-%E2%80%93-williamsburg-controversial-activist-hackled-flees-to-get-police-protection/<BR/><BR/>Comment 80<BR/><BR/>"we have proffesionals Like Rabbi Horowitz and Pelcovitz that deal with these issues with discretion and care for the acussed and acusser."<BR/><BR/>(Never mind the spelling errors, it adds authenticity).<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Horowitz has quite a good reputation in dealing with sexual abuse. However, I fear that he also favours "discretion", i.e. silence, and I think that this is not a wise decision.<BR/><BR/>Because the person who suffered abuse remains in a kind of "double bind". On one hand, the rabbi/family are ready to assist, to help, to support.<BR/><BR/>But on the other hand, the "burden of silence" still remains on the person who was abused, while the abuser remains unscathed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28105066274566708482009-02-15T11:09:00.000+02:002009-02-15T11:09:00.000+02:00This is the situation I was referring to, and it s...This is the situation I was referring to, and it seems quite common to me, either in this set-up or without the intervention of a Rabbi, i.e. the person who suffered abuse just keeps quiet:<BR/><BR/>"...Molester who admitted was begging that his name should not be made public or that we should call the child abuse services. The rav that was involved also asked that we should be quiet."<BR/><BR/>I this case, the person who suffered abuse should receive at least a substantial compensation.<BR/><BR/>After the exchange on this blog, I came to the conclusion, that it was better not to take a lump sum, but to have the molestor pay the consequences as they come up, because it might be difficult to evalutate them from the beginning. i.e. A person who was sexually abused cannot know how long the treatment will go, how much it will cost, what other functions will be affected (inability to have confidance, inability to work, inability to build relations, inability to marry etc). But the Rabbinic authorities should look to it that the principle of compensation is enforced (either by them or by non-jewish authorities).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-34103962752444431892009-02-15T00:04:00.000+02:002009-02-15T00:04:00.000+02:00http://www.vosizneias.com/18474/2008/07/24/stamfor...http://www.vosizneias.com/18474/2008/07/24/stamford-hill-london-%E2%80%93-williamsburg-controversial-activist-hackled-flees-to-get-police-protection/<BR/><BR/>comment 82:<BR/>"A member of my family was molested and the Molester who admitted was begging that his name should not be made public or that we should call the child abuse services. The rav that was involved also asked that we should be quiet..What do you think happened? not a year went by and a another child victim by the same molester."<BR/><BR/>Comment 48<BR/>"Unfortunatly the rabonim have, and are cotinuing to do absoloutly nothing about the REAL issue of child molestation in our moisdes. I'm speaking of close personel expirience of a family member of mine that was molested, and is currently fighting with the Moised to throw the molester out. To all the people out there making light of this subject matter, You should never know what this does to a child, but do your children a favor and educate yourselves on this horrendous issue, you will be singing a different tune once you do."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39245073720769419882009-02-14T20:01:00.000+02:002009-02-14T20:01:00.000+02:00Shoshi,That is a powerful blog.If that is the case...Shoshi,<BR/><BR/>That is a powerful blog.<BR/><BR/>If that is the case you are dealing with specifically, based on what is written on her blog, I can tell you what should have happened.<BR/><BR/>The parent's should have consulted a <I><B>competent Rav</B></I>, by this I mean not a pulpit Rav. The reason being that many(if not most) pulpit Rabbanim in the US have Semicha in Issur V'Heter only. Meaning that they can tell you what is Kosher or not. They may also have Semicha in Shabbos. A really high quality Rav(and these are rare) will have passed all five areas of the Rabbinut Exam. Sad I know, but that is the way it is. However, to deal with a case like this, a Rav needs to be expert in the laws found in Choshen Mispat... which most Pulpit Rabbanim have never read.<BR/><BR/>So consult a competant Rav, preferablly an Av Beit Din, or some other Gadol.<BR/><BR/>Based on when and how the situation seemed to come to an end, the Rav should have, at least in my opinion, have told the parents to refer the matter to the authorities. The primary reason I say this is that an extreme level of predatory behavior was exhibited, and so there is a very good liklihood that he will repeat when the time is right.<BR/><BR/>When that process was done there should have been some measure taken to inform the community. He should have been excluded from community events, and the shidduch process until such a time as that he could convince a compentant B"D that there was little liklihood that he was still a danger(essentially placed in niduy).<BR/><BR/>As far as damages, the B"D may have been able to level a fine and tell the parents that they could sue, but given the fact that it is family I doubt that woudl have happened. <BR/><BR/>If this is the situation that you are currently involved in, as you mentioned above that you were currently inovled in a situation. I would suggest that you contact a competant Rav, R' Sternbuch, R' Eliashiv, R' Feinstein, or someone of similar caliber. If you are unable to contact them, I would suggest contacting R' Twerski and seeing who he recomends working with as far as Rabbinic supervision to keep everything with the bounds of halacha.<BR/><BR/>From the blog it seems that none of what I had mentioned happened. Which means, that in all probability, the offender will place himself in position to once again target children. Perhaps his own, perhaps those of others, perhaps both. Because of the premeditation of the many of the acts described as well as the long term duration of the abuse, it is quite impossible to rule this as simple sexual curiousity gone astray. Enough Yeshiva bochurim without stunning morals find a consentual and legal way to vent that. This really is hard core predatory behavior and will in all liklihood be repeated. Truth is that it would not surprise me to find out in the future that this young man has become a teacher at a elmentary or girls school sometime in the future, and having learned from his past mistakes will be more careful and could ChV"Sh go a long time without being caught and yet able to hurt others.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80906002427523088442009-02-12T10:36:00.000+02:002009-02-12T10:36:00.000+02:00PS: if you want to know more about the "life after...PS: if you want to know more about the "life after abuse in the frum society", here is a link.<BR/>http://sheffele.blogspot.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com