I recently received the following question
It's been a discussion and I'm hoping you can point me to sources as to how singles should understand the actual halacha about :singles having sex
Singles going to mikva
There's all types of people throwing around their opinions and thoughts and feelings but some folks want to live as close to God as possible given the circumstances. They don't want to be above and beyond at this point.
I appreciate it.
I replied
It is not a simple question and depends whether halacha is decided by the bean counting approach or the holistic approach
The standard approach for many years is that of Rav |Moshe
Igros Moshe (EH IV #60) Question:Is dating for social not marriage permitted?Answer Concerning the issue of a young man who is not ready to get married and has no interest in getting married and he is interested in having social dates with young women who also are not ready to get married and have no interest in getting married. They say that since they are careful to avoid the prohibition of yichud (seclusion) there is no prohibition in dating. Even though they know that this is not nice, they say they are not interested in issues of piety and extra measures of modesty and they don’t want to listen to lectures of mussar and rebuke. However they say that they will stop if they hear from me that this is prohibited according to the halacha. Therefore I am forced to respond immediately because this applies to a current activity… There is also a severe prohibition from the Torah in close friendships between a young man and woman. That is even if they avoid hugging and kissing as well as touching and yichud. The problem is that he talks with her for extended times in expressing love and he gets pleasure from this and stares at her. Even according to the Ramban who disagrees with the Rambam and holds this is only a rabbinic prohibition nevertheless agrees that this is a severe prohibition since it has an asmachta from a verse and that it is punished with rabbinic flogging. It is clear that dating is done because of the love of women and not because of ordinary friendship since he clearly prefers being with a woman then with male friends. Why is he interested in this woman when it doesn’t give him greater respect or a good name? It is obviously because of love of a woman because she is a woman. In addition even though she is unmarried, she is a nidah which is prohibited with the punishment of kares…
However others say that this approach is just producing intermarriage in present times.
Rav \yakov exemplifies the holistic approach
Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky(Emes LeYaakov Parshas Yechi page 237): A practical example of zealousness which is not based on a correct reading of the halacha is found in the following question. A person has the choice of marrying a Jewish woman who doesn’t observe the laws of family purity or a non‑Jewish woman. Which is preferable? A student who has not properly served an apprenticeship with an experienced posek will say that it is obvious that the person should choose to marry the non‑Jewish woman. That is because sexual relations with a nidah is punished by kares while sexual relations with a non-Jew is only a violation of a negative commandment of the Torah which is not punished by kares. The truth is not this way. Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:7-8) states that even though sexual relations with a non-Jewish maidservant is only a rabbinic prohibition he rules that, "This sin [of sexual relations with a non‑Jew] even though beis din does not impose the death penalty should not be viewed as minor because there is a loss associated with it. Contrary to all other sexual transgressions in which the son of the relationship is still his son in every respect and has the status of a Jew – even if the child is a mamzer – but the child from a non‑Jewish mother is not his son as it says in Devarim (7:4): For they will turn away your son from following Me.” That means that the son has been removed from following after G‑d. This activity causes him to attach himself to non‑Jews which G‑d has separated us from them so that we would follow after Him and thus he is rejecting G‑d. “ It is clear from this that the person should choose the relationship with the Jewish woman even though she doesn’t observe the laws of family purity.
The issue is whether this is a monogamous relationship and whether she becomes a zona. There is also the issue of common law marriage which was a dispute between Rav Moshe and Rav Yakov. There is also the issue of pilegesh vs marriage
In sum everyone will say it is prohibited but there are a wide variety of reasons why while others will say it is not so bad especially if the issue is a goy or zera l'vatala.
What do you refer to as "bean counting", when apparently (I recently heard this but not seen inside) the Gemara in eruvin says we choose the lesser of evils.?
ReplyDeleteBean counting is saying that the importance of a mitzva or sin is the assiciated punishment the holistic approach says the consequences are the determiner
DeleteNot everyone can follow halacha perfectly.
DeletePeople have to make parnassah, pay for kids education, their kids wedding, etc. they need to fill their basic biological needs.
That's just basic stuff, without talking about gay and LGBTQ behaviour. So the individual will bean count.
what if consequences are a result of being frum, eg Rabbi decries the value of secular education / professions, which leave a person poor and destitute..
DeleteIt is the same argument.
If there's one thing I deal with daily, it's problem where the ideal and the possible are in conflict. The Gedolim(tm) live in an ivory tower where the ideal is always possible and therefore the only option.
DeleteAnd when you throw in twisted morality, it just worsens things. Remember years and years ago, someone from the Wolfson family came to Rav Shteinman, z"l, and presented a plan for a Chareidi college system in Israel. Kosher education in a kosher environment so Chareidim could train, get jobs and support themselves. R' Shteinman rejected the plan. "Better people should be in poverty but Torah pure than to compromise!" Of course, he didn't miss many meals or worry about paying his rent.
Some of these things you have to do under the table. They opposed university study, but also have private doctors. And the docs who treat Gedolim get special kavod in hareidi circles.
DeleteThey said Israel is forbidden, Knesset is heresy. But they derive their power and money from playing the Knesset system.
Summary: don't believe what they tell you and do what is best for you and your family.
Also they use electricity and toilet paper, both modern innovations.
DeleteBottom line: Only the hard care Mennonites are truly honest.
Did they oppose electricity (other than on Shabbat)?
DeleteThe story is told of the Choetz Chayim forbidding electricity in his shul because it wasn't how Jews had always davened.
DeleteIf that's verifiable, I will use it anytime the chareidi start criticizing modern orthodox or Zionism
DeleteAlthough Rambam said it's an impossibility for a metal ship to fly like a bird.
It doesn't matter if it's verifiable. The Chasam Sofer's "Anything new is forbidden by the Torah" is all you need. According to that principle, they should still be living, dressing and eating like 18th century Hungarian Jews. They should not speak any languages other than Yiddish and Biblical/Talmudic Hebrew. No electricy. No modern fabrics in clothing. All the rest. It's just hypocrisy on their part.
DeleteJust like "We follow the entire Shulchan Aruch!" and other lies they tell.
The Chatam sofer made that comment at a time when reform had begun. I don't think he opposed new things in scientific understanding.
DeleteHe was in many ways the inheritor of Rav Yaakov Emden.
The Yavetz was fighting the sabbatean movement. The Chatam sofer was fighting reform.he was modern day "Sadducee" , opposing any new versions of Judaism.
Btw, the Rambam writes that there are no further revelations, hinting at the Kabbalah movement of his time, just a century before the Zohar was revealed.
What the Chatam sofer actually wrote was חדש אסור מן התורה .
DeleteChadash is the new grain, which is forbidden by the Torah. So he was using this as a play on words.
A story I heard is that the early reform made some changes to the davening, cutting out the korbanot.
Even though it's halachic possible to do this in time of pressure, because it was reform doing it, they got hammered by orthodox.
The first Reform innovation was giving sermons in German, not Yiddish. That immediately became "yehareg v'al ya'avor" to this crowd.
DeleteI'm reading a book on the history of hasidism and what strikes me is how terrible the leadership of both the misnagdish and chasidic sides were. As society evolved and became more modern, the leadership insisted that nothing could change. As a result, they created a culture completely incapable of handling the challenges of modernity. Their lack of compromise drove away countless Jews who were told (other than by Rav Hirsch, zt"l) that if you don't remain a medieval, ghetto-bound Jew with peyos down to your belly button then you might as well leave Judaism altogether, and millions of Jews took them up on that offer.
I was going to write a long piece, then I remembered we are approaching Av.
DeleteBe well.
This goes back to the old question - is it better for a Jew to marry another non-religious Jew and live without taharas mishpacha but at least it'll be a Jewish family, or is it less of an issur to marry a non-Jew and avoid the issue kareis but then raise non-Jewish children?
ReplyDeleteLet me just ask Molly what she thinks about trying cholent on Wednesday.
DeleteMy son Chris thinks he prefers being non halachic, as it's still has a better vibe than kares-dic
Hunter biden married to one Melissa Cohen, spouting nonsense about Israel.
DeletePresumably a Jewish woman can intermarry, not suffer karet, and still have Jewish children
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-861903