Rav Schachter has previously indicated that the use of force to encourage the husband to give a get is permitted - even without a ruling of beis din. His recording where he mentioned the appropriateness of the use of violence have been removed from the YU website. See his letter at the end of this post.
=======================
From the end of the following post
The violent attack against Aharon Friedman was at least partially the result of the incitement to violence against Aharon by various rabbis and organizations. In this letter (see link below) that was publicized by ORA, Rabbi Hershel Schachter calls for Aharon to be physically beaten. It is not yet known whether Rabbi Schachter was involved in hiring the thugs that attacked and attempted to kidnap Aharon on Tisha B'av.
One of the sources Rabbi Schachter cites in the letter against Aharon (Rabbi Akiva Eiger) is referenced in an audio lecture by Rabbi Schachter that is on Yeshiva University’s website: http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/739308/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Options_for_Helping_Agunot# as grounds for beating someone over a get. (It is ironic that Rabbi Eiger writes about a husband who is leaving the city of the marital residence and that immediate action was necessary, whereas in this matter it was Epstein who left the city of marital residence with the child and abused the beis din process so that her abduction of the child would be treated as a fait accompli in court.)
In the letter, Rabbi Schachter says that Aharon's situation is the same as "a slave whose master provides for him a Canaanite maidservant, that until now it is has been permissible, and now it is forbidden." In the audio, he explains that in such a situation the slave, or, as he writes in the letter, Aharon, should be beaten. Furthermore, Rabbi Schachter specifically writes in the letter that any person can take the law into his own hands [to beat Aharon].
See in particular:
4:00 - beat someone over a get (citing Rabbi Akiva Eiger)
4:30 - beat a slave for wrongfully remaining married to maidservant, analogizing this case to the get case, and that anyone can take upon himself to take the law into their own hands to beat the person
9:10 - beat someone up over a get
10:20 - bludgeon someone to death over a get
13:33 - have right to beat someone over a get (citing Rabbi Akiva Eiger)
26:50 - beating for a get with a baseball bat
Rabbi Schachter’s letter can be found at Daas Torah here: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/rav-schachter-i-relied-on-rav.html
The reference to Bava Kama 28a in the letter is referring to beating a former slave to prevent him from sinning. It is permitted to beat him - even without the authorization of a beis din
Come and hear: Whence is derived the ruling that in the case of a [Hebrew] bondman whose term of service, that had been extended by the boring of his ear,9 has been terminated by the arrival of the Jubilee year10 if it so happened that his master, while insisting upon him to leave, injured him by inflicting a wound upon him, there is yet exemption? We learn it from the words, And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is . . . come again . . .11 implying that we should not adjudicate compensation for him that is determined to come again [as a servant].12 [Does not this prove that a man may take the law into his own hands for the protection of his interests?]7 We are dealing here with a case where the servant became suspected of intending to commit theft.13 But how is it that up to that time he did not commit any theft and just at that time14 he became suspected of intending to commit theft? Up to that time he had the fear of his master upon him, whereas from that time14 he is no more subject to his master's control.10 R. Nahman b. Isaac said: We are dealing with a bondman to whom his master assigned a Canaanite maidservant as wife:15 up to the expiration of the term this arrangement was lawful15 whereas from that time this becomes unlawful.16
http://forward.com/articles/173452/yeshiva-rabbi-hershel-schachter-stirs-hornets-nest/?p=all
ReplyDelete'Shvartze' Cleric Spoke of Killing Israeli Premier, Compared Women to Monkeys
“The recent use of a derogatory racial term and negative characterizations of African Americans and Muslims by a member of the faculty are inappropriate, offensive, and do not represent the values and mission of Yeshiva University,” a Y.U. spokesman told the ADL, which, in turn passed on the statement to the Forward.
What are the circumstances that Rav Akiva Eiger allowed beating a husband (that were referenced)?
ReplyDeleteOnce again Schachter is on the wrong side of a massive chillul Hashem. The Talmud says that if someone makes a chillul hashem in private will eventually make a chillul Hashem in public. Well... here it is!! A public chillul hashem. How dare you quote the holy R Akiva Eiger when you know good and well that anyone who's sees what he wrote inside, will know that this case has no resemblance what so ever to the case at hand.
ReplyDeleteBTW There is another big chillul Hashem which is about to hit the newspapers which Schachter could have easily prevented and chose not.
I am amazed at this strategy. The Govt has supposedly already subpoenaed Ralbag. Schechter is probably in their cross hairs as well. What will he answer when he is asked if he knew of Epstein and company's modus operandi? Will he also answer that he thought he only yells at people? How will he explain ORA and their methods (which are better than Epstein at least)? Why is Lewin doing the work of the Govt for them?
ReplyDeleteWe see now the govt is pulling in the Friedman-Epstein case. I spoke to someone who has a theory that the rabbis involved in the case, after Epstein and thugs were arrested, quickly came out with the Tamar is free and dosent need a get. The idea was to get them off the target. But after Ralbag and her lawyer were subpoenaed, we see that isn't going to happen. Schechter is the one who paraded her as a spokesperson for ORA. He knows they are after him. Lewin figures to call him as a defense witness before the government subpoenas him as well. Will be interesting to see if he does the same for RSK and RYB.
Lewin will only ask halachic qiestions, not factual questions about the case. If lewin brings up the epstein (philadelphia) case, he allows the prosecution to ask questions about it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the prosecutor can bring up the mp3 recording, which does not mention specifically the philadelphia case. But that would be emphasing lewin's argument.
This is all irrelevant. RHS will be testifying to the judge, not to the jury. Trying to convince the judge to change her ruling, allow a defense of religious freedom. Only if he convinces the judge to allow it (or laying the groundwork for an appealing) will RHS testify to the jury.
Don't forget, lewin is an appeals lawye, not a trial lawyer.
the worst part about the Tamar epstein and Aron Friedman story is a little secret I will share today rabbi Shmuel kaminetzky who is indebted to Tamar's father dr epstein for all that he does for the Philadelphia yeshiva annulled the marriage at the request of Tamar's father. I have in fact a recorded telephone conversation in which shalom kaminetzky shmuels son in which he is asked "on what basis in halachah did his father have the right to simply annule the marriage" you should here shalom stammer and stutter this is in fact not the first time that rabbi Shmuel kaminetzky has decided to annule a marriage. In 1997 after avromy Rubin was beaten rabbi kaminetzky annulled his marriage to Chaya mund after he was severely beaten with his face displayed on the front of the daily news rabbi Shmuel kaminetzky the "frequent flyer gadol" who sits at the head of the Agudas yisrael dayis is a frightening testimony to the depths the yeshiva world has sunken
ReplyDeletethe worst part about the Tamar epstein and Aron Friedman story is a little secret I will share today rabbi Shmuel kaminetzky who is indebted to Tamar's father dr epstein for all that he does for the Philadelphia yeshiva annulled the marriage at the request of Tamar's father. I have in fact a recorded telephone conversation in which shalom kaminetzky shmuels son in which he is asked "on what basis in halachah did his father have the right to simply annule the marriage" you should here shalom stammer and stutter this is in fact not the first time that rabbi Shmuel kaminetzky has decided to annule a marriage. In 1997 after avromy Rubin was beaten rabbi kaminetzky annulled his marriage to Chaya mund after he was severely beaten with his face displayed on the front of the daily news rabbi Shmuel kaminetzky the "frequent flyer gadol" who sits at the head of the Agudas yisrael dayis is a frightening testimony to the depths the yeshiva world has sunken
ReplyDeleteLawyer: Husband [Ahron Friedman] beaten after rabbi's congregations got $60k
ReplyDeleteTRENTON, N.J. (AP) — The congregations of a rabbi who allegedly used brutal tactics to force unwilling Jewish husbands to divorce their wives received $60,000 before one man was attacked, a lawyer testified Monday.
Attorney Fredric Goldfein, who was representing a woman who wanted a divorce, said Rabbi Mendel Epstein instructed him to wire the money to two congregations that he led, NJ.com (http://bit.ly/1BayM9O) reported.
A few days after the money was moved, the husband of Goldfein's client [Tamar Epstein] was attacked by three men in Pennsylvania, he said.
Goldfein, who also is a rabbi, testified for the federal government in exchange for immunity.
...
http://gazette.com/lawyer-husband-attacked-after-congregations-got-60000/article/feed/216563
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/business/20150323/lawyer-husband-beaten-after-rabbis-congregations-got-60k
I don't see why the prosecution must refrain from questioning Rabbi Schacter about anything he knows that is pertinent to the case or anything he knows about Mendel Esptein, Wolmark, etc.
ReplyDeleteis a little secret I will share today
ReplyDeleteIf you do have a recording, why don't you just share a link to it? Why don't you post it on Youtube?
Fact is, Rav Kamenetzky has not made a public pronouncement annulling the marriage.
Umm, when ORA made their announcment just a few weeks after Epstein was arrested, Dr. Epstein had already passed away.
In 1997 after avromy Rubin was beaten rabbi kaminetzky annulled his marriage to Chaya mund
Huh? After she eloped?
The Mund story features a rabbi who was never appointed to the Moetzes. Even if he manages to evade charges here, he will never be appointed to the Moetzes.
Rav elya svei tried for years successfully to keep ran Shmuel kaminetzky in his proper place not making any important klal decisions. When he was niftAr there was no one to reign him in and and the frum community Is so impoverished that a smiling frequent flyer not highly cerelible ran kaminetzky has the ability to annule marriages against all halacha Aron fried man never gave a get to this day and I challenge anime on this blog to offer proof otherwise ran Shmuel annulled the marriage as he did with Rubin in '97 only proving how right rab elya svei was what a sad testimony to the from yeshivos world that this nice zeidy is now a "gadol"
ReplyDeleteShe eloped around 2004. You can google around and you'll find a marriage announcement on her new man's synagogue from around that time.
ReplyDeleteIf the government wants to ask RHS any of those questions, they can subpoena him to testify on their own. If lewin calls him to testify, they can only ask about what he testified for lewin, not new / other matters.
ReplyDeleteyou think you can just make allegation about people without retribution, you do not have immunity with G-d. Chaya Mund's husband is the most erliche baal middos and everything done was with daas torah. also, there is no such thing as an annulment in Judaism, this is not Christianity. You must mean a mekach ta'us and that is not an annulment. It means the marriage was based upon erroneous information. For example, if you marry someone bases solely upon a high net worth and it turns out they are a pauper, it is a mekach ta'us or if you marry a healthy woman and she hid a mental illness, it can be considered a mekach ta'us since she lied. The marriage is a lie.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, why do you assume i was an aguna, and have no sympathy for those who were beaten? I do wonder tho, why would someone not immediately surrender and agree to give a get when his life is at risk?
I have a good friend who desperately wants a get from her husband who left the house and does not provide for her family for months already. There has been no marriage to speak of, for two years. He has no rav, no connections and does not care about social pressure. What do you guys suggest for her?
I am open minded; i can understand that he may want to punish her for not being a 'real wife' and depriving him of what a husband should have... but we are not talking about who is right or wrong here. the fact is that the marriage is not working. why should he not allow her to move on, and he can move on too and find a woman who will be a real wife to him in every sense?
there is NO ONE to help her. she has no family here, works from morning til nite to support her family and he is gone... whats the point in holding her hostage.
anyone have any suggestions?
" I do wonder tho, why would someone not immediately surrender and agree to give a get when his life is at risk?"
ReplyDeleteBecause the Gett would be worthless even if he did surrender and give the Gett under duress, the threat of duress or merely the fear of duress.
Bo lidei kaas, bo liklall TAUT. You seem to be angry at my blood pressure and my heartbeat, you therefore err. In Judaism, there are two forms of making a
ReplyDeleteshortstop to a marriage. 1) Mekach taut, once the fault is discovered as specified per shulchan aruch, he has an option to be moichel the fault, or discontinue the marriage. 2) Annulment happens when the Chachamim are MAFKIA (oiker = uproot) the Kidushin lemafrea as if it never happened to begin with, and it chaps a difference. Masechet Gittin daf 33. states that under certain conditions e.g.when the husband is mevatel a Get sent through a shliach, mipnei tkonas mamzerim Koach Beis Din Yafeh to be mafkiah the Get, as specified by the chachamim under Das Moshe veYisrael. Mendel Epstein is not included in Tkonas chachamim, nor does his cases resemble the circumstances and conditions in order
to apply such. Indeed, if anything, he is chachomim LEHEIRA, as well a factory for manufacturing mamzerim R'L etc.
As far as suggestions for your friend, you have already ruled me out as eligible, since you consider me be an angry person. Therefore, next time around try not hurry allegedly diagnosing through the Internet in a blink of an eye. Surprised why you don't recommend The Epsteiin Maneuver. FYI nothing about A. Rubin was done with Daas Torah as you will live to see once this trial comes to conclusion. It was pure megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalacha, and taking $hochad, R'L. BTW, I also think you have no sympathy, since you bent over backwards accusing me of USING the Chana veshivo boneha tragedy as if to my advantage, when I simply demonstrated why these Datan Vaviram rather deserve shlek so that they will never forget. And before I go, let me remind you that my vitals are perfect, cool, calm and collected.
But he sure made it publicly known to incite anyone that can possibly lay a hand on him. So that was the hechsher of chacham omed al gabov to be complicit in hiring a hit man. Possibly even suggesting who thse goons might be. It is only a matter of time when this elevates to a critical mass and hit the fan.
ReplyDeleteeverything done was with daas torah
ReplyDeleteDo you mean the singular daas of Rabbi Belsky verses all the great halachik decisors?
http://lukeford.net/Images/photos/belsky.pdf
also, there is no such thing as an annulment in Judaism, this is not Christianity. You must mean a mekach ta'us and that is not an annulment.
OK. Objection - Relevance?
By the way, why do you assume i was an aguna
No, no. You're the one who claimed to have been an "agunah". Please keep track of your claims.
I do wonder tho, why would someone not immediately surrender and agree to give a get when his life is at risk?
Huh? Weren't you the one who claimed that the days of thuggery in gitten are over? Are you now continuing in thuggery threats? Is this part of a family business or attitude?
I have a good friend who desperately wants a get from her husband who left the house and does not provide for her family for months already.
Who left the house?
Even if he was the one who left the house, please remember your frumkeit "you do not have immunity with G-d".
However, if she left their house unjustifiably, then that's her cake to eat. G-d made the laws - which, BTW, keep marriages intact. If you have an issue with it, then take it up with Him. You have no right to go and beat people, even if you did it for free. You certainly cannot create a lucrative business out of it snatching $60,000.00 a pop.
I am open minded
Good for you. Lets see....
anyone have any suggestions?
Who is her rabbi? From who has she been taking direction - not just in how to obtain a divorce and strangle her husband - in all her personal matters? Who advised as to how to proceed within her marriage when she had issues?
Her very first step would be to go find an authentic rabbi, rebbetzen or competent mentor. Once done, she'll have a much, much easier time.
There's one issue here. You're anonymous. We don't know whether your claims are true or absolute fiction. Therefore, it will be impossible to ascertain whether the additional info you come back with is true or false. Since you seem to know so much, why don't you mention any of the famous cases where the info became public which is similar to the "case" you mention. We'll take it from there.
You're right. I was mistaken. Thank you for pointing it out.
ReplyDeleteThe Tshuva of R' Akiva Eiger has no resemblance to modern daytime, since
ReplyDeletetoday you can run but cannot hide. That particular case referred, is 1) husband
outright declared he wants to be Meagen her 2) In those days with no modern
communications, e.g. Telephone where anyone can ID him to let know his
whereabouts, pictures to place in newspapers, posters, TV, radio, Internet, or
even the helpless authorities, an on and on, not so today.Therefore, once he is
gone HE IS GONE and forever. He might even travel me'eiver laYam and go look for
Moshe Zichmach. That would be the classic example of an Agunah without a remedy.
Not so R'A.F's. circumstances where he wants his family to remain intact (at
least before she made the whole fiasco and in public), He was mamash pursuing
her to remain intact as a family unit, enjoying and loving his son (children?) sticking steadfast around, indeed she was/is the one being Meagen. In her two column diary where she spoke
heart to heart in sounds of silence all by herself to herself, 'sfoteha naot
vekolah lo yishama' beinah lebein atsmah in all honesty, in consulting her
sechel hayoshor, now THAT talks volumes, loud and clear. If anyone deserves shlek,
that was T.F. It behooves me, who was messing around with her brain. In spite of
all this, she was still a runaway bride on the run. It was HER doing the
running, all by herself, and no less of being a Moredet. So how can you compare
apples to oranges? Is this what you call Medamei Milsa leMilsa, even tinokes
shel beis rabon dechad yoma can tell the difference. It is the epitome
of mehapech bashulchan.This is a classic example of megaleh ponim baTorah
meachoirov uponay baal yeroeh, bending over backwards mangling and twisting into
a pretzel, Rachmonei lesheizvei. All else that followed was out of synch and out
of whack, false psak in conjunction with a false siruv mezuyaf mitocho umigabo, without even the presence of
the tzad shekeneged veshelo befonov, eid naaseh dayan, a Judge, Jury, and
Executioner, limping and hopping all over the place, a mobile so called beis din
one man operation ' i sham ' somewhere between Horei Ararat and Horei Choshech
underground in a makeshift peekaboo boiler room operation. Something stinks in Denmark
and smells all the way here. Back to R' Akiva Eiger for a moment, A. Rubin had
even offered to be present at the so called din torah, but they outright refused
him, im ken, lomoh hirgaztani laalos, neum R' Akiva, vechi ma inyan beezwax
etsel she'eilosi vetshuvosi veami bevakoshosi. Why are you trying to extract
juices from barren fruit. I could go on and on, but Shoshi coerces me to take an
Internet break to simmer down, and I do sympathize. To be continued.
''There might not be a good resolution possible.''....
ReplyDeleteMoe,
we are all aware that there an no good solutions outside of E.Y.
Also, I learned that 'lokin oso ad she'omer rotzeh ani' means that if a valid bais din paskens that he must give a get, but he won't, then 'we help him realize that this is what he wants to do... because really his soul cleaves to righteousness but at this moment his judgement is clouded by rage or power or money or whatever ...' so even tho physical coercion may be used, at the very moment when he agrees to give the get, and being that this was paskened by a bais din, the get IS valid. please explain why this is not so, if i am wrong.
Additionally, Zbeng explains 'bitul ha'nisuin' as tho it never ever occurred. what if there are children already born... how can it be then considered as tho the marriage 'limafraya' never took place... these are the children of the marriage.
Furthermore and very sadly for my friend, since I totally misjudged Zbeng, she will never have a chance to date him, let alone marry him even if he is as calm and cool as a cucumber. Because i know her husband and he is stubborn and will never let her go free and so she is a prisoner. AND to be honest, which of course i can be since no one knows my identity, if i were her brother and i saw this was going on and on with no hope of letting up, AND a valid bais din paskened 'kfiya', AND i were physically capable of taking him down, then yes i would do that. Tell me you would not do that for your sister.
@Shoshana - then you are saying simply that following G-d's Torah doesn't interest you - because there is no heter to take down someone who won't give a Get.
ReplyDeleteContrary to Epstein you can't kill someone who refuses nor will beis din pasken to kill someone. kfiya is beating not killing - nor can you even threaten to kill him.
I apologize for misusing the word... i did not realize that 'taking down' means killing. G-d forbid, i would never do such a thing... i meant only to use the least force possible to get him to give a get.
ReplyDeleteZbeng,
ReplyDeleteI got clarity now, My husband and l
just learned the daf you referenced before.
You took the expression ‘afkinu d’rabbanan’
out of context.
Yes the gemara says that, but its
based upon the mishna in gittin 32, that if someone wrote a get and sent with
a shaliach and then regrets it, as long
as the wife did not yet receive the get, he can be mevatel it and she is not
divorced. He has to either run after the
shaliach and invalidate the get OR tell his wife that the get she is going to receive
is mevutal. ALL this is ok as long as
she did not yet receive the get.
It used to be that a man could be
mevatel the get in the presence of another bais din but Rabban Gamliel Hazaken ruled
that this practice should be stopped due to ‘tikun Olam’. What does tikun olam
refer to. ?
Rav Yochanan says due to problem of
mamzerim if she gets remarried. Raish
Lakish says it due to ‘takanos agunos’.
There is a braisa that says ‘what happens if someone is mevatel a get
via beis din even after the takana of Rabban Gamliel hazaken…so there is a
machlokes. Rebbi says that the bitul is
valid. Rabbi shimon ben gamliel says ‘no,
you can’t change anything once the get is given to the shaliach in light of the
takana. Because then, whats the point of
the takana ?
So the Gemara asks, ‘how can it be
that mi’d’oraisa the bitul is chal and she is an eishes ish, but mid’rabbanan,
she is divorced ?
So the gemara answers ‘kol hamikadesh al daas d’rabbanan mikadesh, (and
that’s why he say ‘harei at mikudeshes li k’daas moshe v’yisroel’ ) ‘vafk’inu rabbanan likidushin minay’
Afk’inu means to annul. Rashi explains that the kidushin is based
upon ‘daas moshe v’yisroel’ they said that this kiddushin is annulled ‘al yeday
GET’ GET bilvad!
So it turns out
that in reality there IS NO CONCEPT of annulment of a marriage in klall
yisroel, so how could the Rosh Yeshiva from Philadelphia annul the
marriage. We are not Catholics!
By Rav Akiva Eiger's case, the husband openly announced he would make his wife an aguna by saying he planned to abandon her, no longer support or live with her, and that he will not give a Get.
ReplyDeleteBy Tamar Epstein's case, her husband never made her an aguna. She's a self-declared aguna. She walked out and he wanted reconciliation. He's halachicly entitled to seek shalom bayis. So there's no comparison.
Doublespeak, often called "double talk," is the distortion, changing or switching of words to make an unpleasant, tricky or otherwise negative situation not sound as awful
ReplyDeletehttp://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-doublespeak.html
"Take down" in military language instead of saying killing someone
And
ReplyDeletethe tirutz is that afkinhu rabanan Kidushin is, that when he says harei at
mekudeshes with a shaveh prutah and more, of which is the "consideration"
necessary to be mekadesh, we do say (declare) hefker beis din hefker from a
time of yet under ownership when the BD still has the Koiach to declare such,
thereby losing ownership , therefore the kidushin isn't valid from the
beginning. if we should say only from NOW ON ONLY, there is nothing to be MAFKIR
anymore, he already gave it away! And THAT is "Kedas" Moshe veYisrael = ruling,
not "Kedaas" = opinion, fershteist! (see megillat esther veHshtiya Kados) That
is ANNULMENT, my friend, no Kidushin ever happened. Tikun Olam means, should one
able to be mevatel once the shtar get is out of his reach and she would receive
such a canceled Get (unbeknownst) the innocent olam unsuspectingly will either
marry her while she happens to be an eishes ish, or if we tell her NOT to marry
because of this chashash, we make her an Agunah, thereby making it a catch 22.
That means, In any which case, not good for the goose, and not good for the
Gander, therefore the (Tikun for the ) OLAM. Not the lekich and bronfein
kind) Get it? Enough said, if I say more, it will considered R'L Tiflus.
Let me clarify that you do seem to have a comprehension problem as well. Here is why
ReplyDelete"As far as suggestions for your friend, you have already ruled me out as eligible, since you consider me be an angry person."
That is in direct reference of eligibility of to "ADVISE" you for whomever, since the concept of "Bo lidei kaas bo liklall taut", rules me out to "advise" even in a state of cool calm and collected cucumber by giving mistaken advice, while it states lifnei iver lo siten michshol if you get my drift. Much closer to misunderstanding than to misjudgement. As far as MAFKIA (that is from Adam aka from dawn/ Harei At) is concerned, even if she has children from the first husband, they are considered children of a PNIYAH and not mamzerim provided, when hafkaah is "legit". Not so when it is done with the Epstein manuever and Technique, goon squad et al. applying undue force making it a get Meusse, and since it is Possul, she remains an Eishes Ish and the children of the SECOND paramour are c.v. mamzerimlach. Even if you sing FREE FREE AS ONE CAN BE till the chickens come home to roost and the cows return from the pastures, and until you become red in the face, just by mere declaration it is no more free than free lunches. As a good piece of advice from a cool, calm and collected cucumber, do yourself a favor, don't rush to judgement, and refrain from delving into Talmud where both are not good for your soul, since you erred in both. Al tevahel es picha lachti es besorcho, pen yiktzof H' elokecha. BTW, are you sure your'e not Mrs E and being your own good friend asking for free advice, all indicators seem to point there. Just asking, no need to reply. Over n out.
I googled the expression after your post and i see that it means 'to kill' I agree that 'man' is called a 'midaber' for a reason... language is super important and closely intertwined with truth, and integrity and language and the way we choose to express ourselves defines who we are as human beings. So again, I apologize. I did not intend to use 'double talk' and I recognize the concept as deceitful, which i am not. I thought that 'take down' means literally to tackle someone or pull them down. I also think that 'k'fiya' when mutar, should be used just enough to achieve the goal and not G-d forbid one drop of force more than necessary and never for personal revenge or satisfaction. Thank you for pointing that out... now i learned something.
ReplyDeleteThere is no bitul nisuin without the get but you are disregarding that fact. The whole concept of 'annullment' is only a 'concept' to make the get valid. Altho I appreciate your response, the last line was uncalled for and does not reflect well on the rest of your post. The gemara's reference to tiflus as it relates to teaching one's daughter torah cannot be taken literally. i know that cerebrately but do not have proof yet.
ReplyDeleteShoshana: You perhaps may not realize that kfiya is only an option in very rare circumstances. Not even in all cases where a husband is halachicly required to give a Gett and he nevertheless illegally refuses to is kfiya halachicly permitted. And if kfiya is utilized when it is impermissible to do so, even if he halachicly was obligated to give a Gett, then the resulting Gett is invalid and halachicly worthless. That said, in circumstances where kfiya is halachicly warranted, I'm all for using it in the absence of any alternative.
ReplyDeleteThe Shulchan Aruch paskens halacha l'maaisa that teaching a daughter Torah she'bal peh is tiflus. As to the definition of tiflus, there are a few. But Rashi teitches tiflus to mean leading to sexual immorality.
ReplyDeletewhy in the world would the 'Rabbi' you make reference to, even WANT to be part of the moetzes.... He can put the entire moetzes in his back pocket, in terms of b'kiyus and lomdus ba Torah v' Halacha. In terms of general knowledge as well... math, science, and general brilliance.
ReplyDeletewhy don't you write a guest post on the subject of tiflus
ReplyDeletethis is a starting point - especially the view of the Lubavitcher Rebbe
https://www.nishmat.net/torah/view.asp?id=44
Honesty, i am going to de escalate this discussion so that we are not being so confrontational... no reason for that. Regarding my friend... she is suffering greatly. She HAS gone to authentic rabbanim and tried everything she can. i stated that it the husband who left. he is a drifter, has no community and no rav. he does mashgiach work here and there, so community pressure does not speak to him...
ReplyDeleteAs for me, i never stated on this web site that i was an agunah... so i don't know where you got that from... but anyway, since you mention it, i was considered an aguna by the state of israel and it was a well known case, but i don't want to be any more specific than that and i think personal details have nothing to do with the philosophical nature of our discussions here.
as far as my comment about 'why a man would resist giving a get when his life is at risk', i was referring to forced gittin that were already done. i was not advocating for more gittin by force and i do believe that at least in the litvish world, the days of forced gittin are over so 'let the buyer beware' and please do your homework and pray a lot before getting married in the USA.
why in the world would the 'Rabbi' you make reference to, even WANT to be part of the moetzes....
ReplyDeleteGood question. 1) Do you know that he would have refused an invitation? He would not have refused.
He can put the entire moetzes in his back pocket, in terms of b'kiyus and lomdus ba Torah v' Halacha.
From where do you purport know this bit of information from? Are all your posts based on the same method you used to reach this conclusion?
[Judaism is not limited to cold knowledge. Character and yiras Shomayim are even more important, in addition to having the proper knowledge and understandings.]
LOL, I will try... but actually i work full time and it is erev pesach... also i am noticing that this web site is somewhat addictive... i love philosophical shakla vitarya... soncino calls it 'back and forth'.
ReplyDeleteEven if that should be so, that's not good enough. talmud states, kol mi she'eno baki betiv gitin veKidushin al yehei esek imohen. In order to be able to involve in these types of beezwax, you must have shimush, that is to standby next to a Gadol executing these affairs in real time. All the knowledge in the world, if shelo lomadto, velo shoniso, velo shimashto es gdolei haDor, it is worthless, and I am not even considering to throw into the mixture, that because of negius he should never have touched this with a 1,000 foot pole If I am not mistaking, he also was a shoshvin at the wedding, but cannot elaborate because of tiflus R'L'.
ReplyDeletethere is nothing like experience, ask any shochet the diiference between theory and practice, Soteh 22. While at it, right next to that daf 21: you can also find that torah is machkim and she will outsmart herself by going clandestine, vehamevin yovin,so much ado about Tiflus, enough said vehamevin yovin.
Shoshana: Honesty has linked a few times to a comment you posted on the ABC News website describing the fallout from your first marriage:
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=29076272#comment-1864954614/
If the nisuin is batul, the children are viewed as if born to an unmarried woman out of wedlock. They are not mamzeirim.
ReplyDeleteShoshana, I cannot fathom why you'd think it's a good idea to put out such info on the ABC website. Have you seen some of the comments in response? Bad enough you did it, must you boast about it online as well?
ReplyDelete@zee big bang: Why not try writing English instead of these indecipherable transliterations you evidently think are clever?
ReplyDeleteMelamed shehoyu metzuyonim sham. Shelo shinu et shmam e.g. Kishke-yum, aka as in yiddishe kishke, shelo shinu et leshonam as per Daas Toiro, ve'es malbushom. Veod: Leolam yeshane odom letalmido beloshon ktzoro, and nothing in the world is as descriptive, compact, in nonverbose terms as our mame loshon haKodesh, love it! veod lebattata, ein odom yodea ma shebelev shel chavero, kappish? Don't you have transliteration pgm?
ReplyDeleteHowever, if she does remarry and have children, the children will be considered mamzerim, that is more than a mouthful, veidach zil ugmor (mame loshon)
ReplyDelete" The whole concept of 'annullment' is only a 'concept' to make the get valid".
ReplyDelete" this kiddushin is annulled ‘al yeday GET’ GETbilvad!"
it is the G-d given power of attorney for the Chachamim leheitiv, not only in theory, but in practice as Das Moshe veYisrael, although in our particular case the mechanism is to give cause and validate Rabon Gamliels Tikun Olam.
read further
Kindly refer to Omarti echkemo vehi rechoka mimeno. You must be able to follow the train of thought in the Gemara into various levels to fathom. Before tkonas Raban Gamliel, you were able to be mevatel the shlichus haget. That brought the onslaught of tekolos, either that she will remarry having issur eishes ish since she is unaware of the bitul, OR the tekala of Agunot if she must refrain from remarrying due to the safek bitul. Due to these tekala issues, came along Rabon Gamliel haZaken and decreed, that you CANNOT be mevatel such a GET of shliach, mipnei Tikun haOlam as we already explained, thereby, not giving cause of such sfeikus anymore, and the GET is on auto pilot, no matter what the Husband says. Here is the bombshell, asks the Gemara, how can Raban Gamliel come to be mevatel a Deoraysa with his own Tekana of which is only derabanan, since mideoraysa his BITUL OF GET DOES COUNT, the Get becomes obsolete, she remains an Eishes ish...comes R' Gamliel and oiker husbands powerful words Mideoraysa as invalid. The answer is" im ken ma koach ha Beis din yofeh? The Rabanan indeed have a koach to be oiker a Kidushin with a hafkoas beis Din - of Hefker Beis din hefker, as within Kedas Moshe veYisrael, which makes it A Deoraysa, out goes the kushya of derabanan against deoraysa, since both bear equal weight. Therefore, comes along Raban Gamliel with Tikun Olam, having the weight and power to decree a Tekana of NOT TO BE ABLE and mevatel the shlichus, preventing kilkul down the line. That is to say, in reality the get is the instrument that is actually instituted in the saga of bitul shlichus. But the fact still remains that Beis Din Koach Yofeh to be mafkia a Kidushin = ANNULMENT LEMAFREA as if it never happened whenever they see fit, And yes, there is such an animal in Judaic law! Whether RSK used that power, I don't believe it for one minute, neither does he himself, nor anyone else, as we shall see as things develope daily. It probably was a sort of a tactic to motivate RAF to make something more viable and move on. I hope this helps, and try not to dwell more on this because of T-----. Talking about the forbidden T---- word, see tosfos explanation of T-----, rotze isha beTisha Kavin T..... rofl, I do not want to go there and open up another can of worms, you might raise your BP and HB. I hope this helps.
FYI The concept of Annulment came from a Rov, when King of England wanted to Divorce the Queen, but couldn't since the catholic religion does not allow, so he was recommended to confer with the Jews since they are wise. The Rov advised him the Biblical concept of Annulment, short of his forbidden divorce. Although to the King the Rov applied the concept of hatores nedorim.
Hock nisht kein cheinik, zee bang. If the nisuin is batul, she's not an eishes ish, so the progeny of the next marriage are not mamzeirim. If the nisuin is not batul, the progeny of the first marriage are not born out of wedlock. Try to hahlt kup.
ReplyDeleteI skip most of what you write b/c of this silly habit, this latest narishkeit included.
ReplyDeleteGreetings to every one that is reading this testimony ' just want to share my experience with the world on how Dr Ofemo help me got my love back and saved my marriage I was married for 5years with 3kids and we lived happily until things started getting ugly and we had fights and arguments almost every time it got worse at a point that she filed for divorce I tried my best to make her change her mind & stay with me cause i loved her with all my heart and didn't to loose him but everything just didn't work out,she moved out of the house and still went ahead to file for divorce I pleaded and tried everything but still nothing worked. The breakthrough came when someone introduced me to this wonderful, great spell caster who eventually helped me out.. I have never been a fan of things like this but just decided to try reluctantly cause I was desperate and left with no choice... He did special prayers and used powerful magic Within 24hour him called me and was sorry for all the emotional trauma she had cost me, moved back to the house and we continue to live happily, the kids are happy too and we are expecting our third child. I have introduced him to a lot of couples with problems across the world and they have had good news, Just thought I should share my experience cause I strongly believe someone out there need's it. contact Dr. Ofemo today via email: drofemospelltemple@gmail.com or you can call the great Dr four help +2348163387496.he is still capable of solving other issues and he has helped most of my friends over here in united state,thank you father Dr Ofemo for bring my lover back to me,email address: drofemospelltemple@yahoo.com.
ReplyDeleteGreetings to every one that is reading this testimony ' just want to share my experience with the world on how Dr Ofemo help me got my love back and saved my marriage I was married for 5years with 3kids and we lived happily until things started getting ugly and we had fights and arguments almost every time it got worse at a point that she filed for divorce I tried my best to make her change her mind & stay with me cause i loved her with all my heart and didn't to loose him but everything just didn't work out,she moved out of the house and still went ahead to file for divorce I pleaded and tried everything but still nothing worked. The breakthrough came when someone introduced me to this wonderful, great spell caster who eventually helped me out.. I have never been a fan of things like this but just decided to try reluctantly cause I was desperate and left with no choice... He did special prayers and used powerful magic Within 24hour him called me and was sorry for all the emotional trauma she had cost me, moved back to the house and we continue to live happily, the kids are happy too and we are expecting our third child. I have introduced him to a lot of couples with problems across the world and they have had good news, Just thought I should share my experience cause I strongly believe someone out there need's it. contact Dr. Ofemo today via email: drofemospelltemple@gmail.com or you can call the great Dr four help +2348163387496.he is still capable of solving other issues and he has helped most of my friends over here in united state,thank you father Dr Ofemo for bring my lover back to me,email address: drofemospelltemple@yahoo.com....
ReplyDeleteGreetings to every one that is reading this testimony ' just want to share my experience with the world on how Dr Ofemo help me got my love back and saved my marriage I was married for 5years with 3kids and we lived happily until things started getting ugly and we had fights and arguments almost every time it got worse at a point that she filed for divorce I tried my best to make her change her mind & stay with me cause i loved her with all my heart and didn't to loose him but everything just didn't work out,she moved out of the house and still went ahead to file for divorce I pleaded and tried everything but still nothing worked. The breakthrough came when someone introduced me to this wonderful, great spell caster who eventually helped me out.. I have never been a fan of things like this but just decided to try reluctantly cause I was desperate and left with no choice... He did special prayers and used powerful magic Within 24hour him called me and was sorry for all the emotional trauma she had cost me, moved back to the house and we continue to live happily, the kids are happy too and we are expecting our third child. I have introduced him to a lot of couples with problems across the world and they have had good news, Just thought I should share my experience cause I strongly believe someone out there need's it. contact Dr. Ofemo today via email: drofemospelltemple@gmail.com or you can call the great Dr four help +2348163387496.he is still capable of solving other issues and he has helped most of my friends over here in united state,thank you father Dr Ofemo for bring my lover back to me,email address: drofemospelltemple@yahoo.com.....
ReplyDeleteu cn skip em all. vehkrioh kados, ein oines. TR, no necessito to read.
ReplyDeletekishkeyum, i was not boasting. Not even near boasting. I even wrote that there was no glory in the process.. only pain. I was trying to explain to non Jews why a family would reach the kind of desperation that we did. I regretted writing it when i saw the comments that were elicited because I felt that inadvertently i caused a chillul Hashem and i wish i could withdraw the post, but i cant. I also think it's probably not a good idea for me to post here anymore. This is a guys web site and i have no place here... my posts just aggravate you and you can't seem to relate to me as just a person instead of a woman with a 'kal daas'.... Zbeng, sorry if i misjudged you... i have no trouble following your posts, the last one was super funny by the way... my children asked me what i was laughing about....I can 'hold kup' as well as any of you; and any man who believes that women inherently have lower IQs or are less capable of deep thought or logic are misleading themselves. For men, you all have the gift of gab... you make use of your 'one part' very effectively. I appreciate this web site, found a lot of good things here, especially Moe's posts which are logical coherent, and never get personal. If i have time, i'll send an e mail about the tiflus issue to the moderator, if he wants to post it. Aside from that, i will get back to my family, pesach cleaning etc. Best to you all, best wishes for a chag kasher v'sameach and may it be Hashem's will that at this time of cherus, ALL of our fellow Jews realize true freedom from jail, from dead marriages, and from personal bonds real or imagined.
ReplyDeleteTwo things. One, when the chachomim excercise Hafkaat kidushin, then he is considered to marry a pnuya, and the children are NOT Mamzerim, period! In discussion of BITUL SHLICHUS, since Reb Gamliel did the Tekana, it is the GET that ends the marriage, period. She is then a GRUSHA. My reference to hafkoes kidushin if she decides afterwards to get married and had children with someone else, that is a whole other program, and another ball game, in a different ball park. Don't even go there, it is outside of the realm of our current disscussion.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with women posting. You don't aggravate me in the slightest. I simply disagreed with posting that kind of thing in that forum.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't seeking permission, so no need to grant it. I was informing you of the fact.
ReplyDelete@shoshana Did a beis din that both you and your ex-husband agreed to use issue a formal ruling permitting kfiya?
ReplyDeleteDid a beis din that both you and your ex agreed to use issue a formal order permitting kfiya?
ReplyDeleteForgiven. ROFL, on the response to hafkaat Kidushin, you did follow
ReplyDeletesurprisingly quite in depth, and I was right on target of tisha kavin tiflus and
the Assirit Kav you have cleverly stolen, so now you understand why women are
not supposed to learn Shebaal Peh. It sharpens their mind and end up stealing.
Moe is a good guy, always with a smile, straight shooter, like his logic and
most / everything he has to say. Sounds like a real mentsch with good midos et
al. Humor is the best medicine. I do have much sympathy when one yid inflicts
pain an another yid as well as a yiddene, undeservedly. Yidden are rachmonim
bnei rachmonim and not suppose to rule with an iron fist, even if they get paid
for it. I also don't believe for one moment that ANYONE meant it leshem mitzva,
not the shliach, not the meshalach, not the sofer, kicker, choker, or the rest
of the pamalya. My heart goes out when I see the pic of A., Rubin, cannot
fathom how a Yid can commit such. I hope and pray such will never ever happen
again, not to my brethren or sistren. Wishing all a Koshern Pesach and
Freilichen Yom tov. Here is one I yet didn't chap. If they use the Annuling as
Kedas MV, why the Klep? Either kom lei bederaba minei, or trei koleh lo
mishtamei. Double jeopardy is not an option. Oh, and those that will end up
sitting, they will have a window/door of opportunity by shfoch chamoscho. And
those that end up in dead marriages, is because they signed a DNR. For the sake
of the children you inject IV, deFibrillator if necessary, get off the high
horse, make the best of it and get a life, otherwise u r dead meat, that goes
for both, either or-or survivor, and THAT is the sod of briah, horse and
marriage, veze kol hatorah al regel achat.
But can she marry a cohen?
ReplyDeleteIt seems they called Rabbi Jachter instead (or maybe first): http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/03/lakewood_rabbis_son_wasnt_involved_in_forced_divor.html
ReplyDeleteIf only they had called an old shtieble rav, he could have saidanswereds to the question of whether vodka is standard equipment.
i am going to de escalate this discussion so that we are not being so confrontational
ReplyDeleteGreat. Thanks.
She HAS gone to authentic rabbanim and tried everything she can.
What would his friends be saying? What's his version of what's going on? The case, as you the describe it, is an anomaly. I know of a bunch of cases where the woman has scrempt "agunah! agunah!!!!". However, the facts were/are that these women were/are attempting to alienate the children from their father.
i think personal details have nothing to do with the philosophical nature of our discussions here.
I agree with this.
please do your homework and pray a lot before getting married in the USA.
Absolutely. This is important for both the men and women. It would be important for the women to seek not to be be amongst 70-90% of divorces that are initiated by women, here in the US of A.
Consult RSK or TAMAR or R'S or all of the above, since they are the one's priviliged to nichnas yayin yotzo Sod. Personally, I don't drink and drive. Hilchos shtuyey Yayin. :)
ReplyDeleteGranted! Now that I'm informed, u cn skip in whole or part, with or without permission.
ReplyDeleteThis post should be removed, as it is clear by now that it is a complete falsehood.
ReplyDeleteIt turned out that RHS did not testify at the trial but rather someone else with a somewhat similar name. It seems sufficient to make note of that. The discussion of RHS' position and statements in this post are still relevant.
ReplyDeleteI could have done so without informing too, and did, and will, or won't, as I wish. Or in your language: ich hub dir arein in bud, chantrish.
ReplyDelete