Guest post by a concerned relative of the Weiss family. update concerning get me'usa
I will not say who I am, because I assume then I will be listed on the enablers page on the free Gital website, and I too will loose my livelihood.
I would like to state that in no way am I voicing my support for AM not giving a get. However, I am wondering why we as a society are allowing the Dodelson's to trample out Torah laws, make a huge Chilul Hashem, and embarrass our Torah leaders. One wrong does not permit one thousand wrongs. I realize perhaps for the more modern crowd, who are perhaps, less in tune with halacha, they jump on the bandwagon when they hear "Agunah" and believe that all means are permissible to 'unchain' said Agunah. I would like to postulate at we, as a Halacha abiding community, are obligated to act differently. I believe we are obligated by the actions of the Maacabim, who stood strong to their Torah values no matter the price.
To what price do I refer? You noticed I do not sign my name. I notice that thousands of people visit this blog weekly. It can be reasonably be assumed that many are in support of the Weisses, yet there is no way to know who the supporters are. I assume this means that the fear is widespread. The fear is of being thrown to the Facebook Agunah Defamation League, losing your jobs, getting phone calls and angry emails from strangers. Perhaps you, like some of AM's friends have been told that if you show any support you will not receive your Kollel check. Perhaps you have been subjected, like I have, to the verbal vomit that spews from the mouths of those who know nothing but feel entitled for their opinion. Or perhaps you see that the Dodelsohn's and their publicist Shira Dicker care nothing for Halacha and will destroy everything and anything in their path in order to get what they want. (Do you still agree with those who tell AM to give the get and trust the Dodelsohn's to negotiate custody in good faith?)
A few examples of their disrespect for Halacha:
-The Dodelson's cause a huge Chillul Hashem when they take a sob story to the secular press, ignoring the venue of going through Rabbi Ronnie Greenwald
-Gital was quoted in the [Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-face-of-agunot-promises-to-keep-fighting-for-all-chained-women/] saying she wanted to live with a man before marriage
-Shira Dicker was quoted in newsweek saying she cannot wait to use facebook as a means to overturn a centuries old law (read: what she thinks of our Torah)
- The Dodelson's have AM's Father and Uncle fired from Artscroll, where they worked spreading Torah knowledge, that we all benefit from every day, for over two decades. Keep in mind that most Poskim hold that once you embarrass the Father of a Meagen (if you consider him one) the get given is a forced get and is invalid. Apparently, having children who are mamzerim is of no concern to Gital.
[Majority opinion regarding forcing the husband's father, please see:Ram"a's comment to Even HaEzer 134:4 with Pischei Teshuva there # 12
שולחן ערוך אבן העזר הלכות גיטין סימן קלד
י"א דלא מקרי אונס אלא מה שאונסין לאדם עצמו, אבל אם אונסין לאחר עד שיגרש חבירו, אפילו אב על בנו או להיפך, לא מקרי אונס (תשובת הרשב"ץ). ויש מחמירין באב על בנו (ב"י). ועיין לקמן סימן קנ"ד מדינים אלו
פתחי תשובה אבן העזר סימן קלד ס"ק יב(יב) ויש מחמירים באב על בנו - ע' בת' משכנות יעקב שם שדעתו להחמיר כיש מחמירין אלו דאונס אב לגבי בן חשיב אונס(גם בס' ב"מ לעיל ס"א כתב דכן עיקר) והביא שם מדברי הרשב"א בתשו' המיוחסות לרמב"ן סי' רע"ג והר"ר בצלאל סי' ט"ז והגמ"ר פ"ו דגיטין ותשו' הרשב"ש סי' של"ט שכולם החמירו בדבר זה ובפרט בנ"ד לפי טענת המערער שהכהו אביו מכה רבה כו' ע"ש עוד בתשובה שניה שם אות ט"ו:
(Regarding that "all Poskim" regard monetary coercion as "forcing", please see
Pischei Teshuva there #10)
פתחי תשובה אבן העזר סימן קלד ס"ק י
דמה שהבין הרמ"א ז"ל דיש מחלוקת בין הרשב"א והרשב"ץ ומתוך כך פסק דבדיעבד יש להקל הנה לפי המבואר בס' מכתב מאלי' בדיני הביטול סימן כ' ובמהרח"ש בדיני מודע' ואונס אין כאן מחלוקת כלל והעיקר תלוי באם שאנחנו יודעים ומכירים שאין מגרש אלא מצד הקנס ומגלה דעתו בכך הוי גט מעושה ולא התירו הרשב"ץ והר"ר מיימון רק בנדון דידהו שקבל מתחלה הקנס מצד עצמו ורצונו הפשוט ולא זז מדעתו מתחלה ועד סוף דאז אין לתלות שעשה זה מחמת אונס (וכ"כ בס' בית מאיר לחלק בכך ומסיים דצ"ע אם יש להקל נגד הרשב"א כמו בנדון דידי' אף בדיעבד כו' ע"ש)
-the Dodelson's publicly attack and embarrass Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, attempt to have him discredited from the RCA, and petition to have him removed as a speaker by community events.
-and what I consider a last and final blow, the Dodelson's list Rebbitzen Sheila Feinstein, who offers no support to her grandson as an enabler. She is literally an innocent bystander in this whole situation, and we as a public have a responsibility not to let her be destroyed by the baseless actions of base people.
Please keep in mind that Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky has declared that the Dodelson's need to stop their "smear campaign" against the Weisses. The facebook page is still up. The website is still up. The Dodelson's are making public that they used Reb Shmuel's Halachic knowledge to support their cause, and discarded and disregarded it when they had no further use for it.
We need to stand against the Dodelson's not for the Weisses sake, but for the sake of our Torah and the Halacha that they are trampling.
Please call the Dodelson's at the following numbers and ask them to follow Reb Shmuel's psak and take down the website and facebook page. If you are brave (or foolhardy?) post your name, your actual name on this webpage. Let us band together and show each other that those who follow Halacha can succeed.
Gital cell: 1-732-267-1649
Dodelson home: 1-732-886-5121
I just called to let them know what anti-torah schemers & manipulators they are. Instead of working through Torah law, the Doddelsons use the court of non-Jewish opinion and terror tactics. Why not work with a zabla bais din as has been offered by the Weisses and is the husband's basic halachic right or with Rabbi Greenwald? The Doddelsons are not used to getting their way because of their wealth, but Hashem, Torah, and the truly decent Jewish people will ultimately prevail over their anti-Torah crusade.
ReplyDeleteA get is given when the marital issues have been resolved by a G-d fearing beit din/third party (unless the husband refuses to participate in an reasonable resolution process). This is CLEARLY NOT the case here. Zabla beit din AND Rabbi Greenwald have both been offered as well as in Rabbi Greenwald's case utilized and both halachically supported and eminently reasonable options.
A secular court's decision has no bearing on the get process. The secular court's decision cannot be used to pasken that a get should be given as the giving of a get is founded on Toram m"Sinia - not a secular judge in 21st century USA. This is just simply common sense!
That isn't true. Bet din of America (part of the RCA that yeshiva if si is part of) issues a get first. Everything else is decided next.
DeleteOnce the couple is no longer living together, the get should be issued as forcing her to comply with eishet ish is a perversion of halachah.
She is no longer married and should be released. Essentially you are stating that the get is important leverage that the husband is entitled to abuse.
According to the Halacha as stated in Shulchan Aruch, the issuance of the Get is the LAST part of the end-of-marriage process, AFTER ALL other outstanding issues have been resolved in accordance with Jewish Law under the auspices of a Beis Din.
DeleteSecondly, a wife who unilaterally leaves her husband does NOT, under Halacha, have an automatic right to receive a Get from her husband.
Can you correct my post to say "the Doddlesons are not used to NOT getting their way because of their wealth"
Deletethank you
A get is not leverage, it is the final resolution of marital issues as determined by a G-d fearing Beit din zabla if necessary or arbitrator.
DeleteCan you correct my post to say "the Doddlesons are not used to NOT getting their way because of their wealth"
Delete========================
sorry but it would mean I would have to cut and paste the whole thread. Blogger doesn't have a means of editing comments. The have to be erased and reposted
"Keep in mind that most Poskim hold that once you embarrass the Father of a Meagen (if you consider him one) the get given is a forced get and is invalid."
ReplyDeleteI would like to see the sources for most poskim if that is possible. Thanks
E-Man: Search this blog. It's all over here.
DeleteFrom Confused:
ReplyDeleteSo the dodelsons should follow Hagaon Harav Kamenetzky's psak,
Yet, going to the press and pressuring artscroll - both of which were explicitly sanctioned in the Kol Koreh signed by Hagaon Harav Kamenetzky Shlita and many others - shows their disrespect for Halacha...
Even if the Kol Koreh of going to the press was halachically supported, which it is not - nor have the signers offered any halachic basis for this unsupported proclamation which is apparently justified only by Doddleson $'s - none of the signers could possibly imagined the level of disdain and disparagement Gital heaped on not only her husband, but the entire orthodox word of dating and marriage!
DeleteIts not a matter of raising funds. Its about a battle for the integrity of the get process and the integrity of future generations of Klal Yisroel. Avraham Weiss is insuring, whether he consciously relates to it or not, that the world should undertsand that a get is not given on demand but rather through a beit din - zabla if necessary - or a mutually agreed upon G-d-fearing arbitrator. Financial terrorism and attempted public humiliations of family and supporters is not only a grotesque violation of halacha, but will produce an invalid get and could result, G-d forbid, in mamzeros,
Delete" I realize perhaps for the more modern crowd, who are perhaps, less in tune with halacha," What hypocrisy! This anonymous poster criticizes the Dodelsons' for their smear campaign (and I am not condoning their behavior), but then speaks lashon hara al haklal! Whom he calls "the modern crowd" (don't paint them all black because a certain aguna organization is "modern") cares very much about halacha. It's the chumras that they ignore.
ReplyDeleteThey ignore basic halachos. Mixed swimming is a basic issur. Uncovered hair is a basic issur. etc. It is no more l"h than saying the Conservatives are less in tune with halacha.
DeleteAnd all chareidim wear burkas... When you say "modern Orthodox" you are referring to a broad spectrum. We don't go mixed swimming or have a tv, I cover my hair completely, and my daughters and I dress according to halacha. BUT my son is in the army, my cleanshaven husband only wears white shirts on shabbos, and our hashkafa is that being educated, working for a living, living k'halacha, learning kovea itim (l'shma), and making a kiddush hashem while functioning in the real world is the true Torah ideal. We are part of a larger community that shares our ideals, dresses b'tzniut, follows our rav, and yet we are considered modern orthodox because we are not black hatters (any more). When you lump us with Conservatives you are not speaking emes. It is lashon hara.
DeleteIn response to 'Bunsa Bayis' I profusely apologize for insinuating that the entire modern orthodox community does not care for Halacha, I am only referring to the many names on facebook and even this blog who have clearly voiced their opinion that freeing an Agunah is more important to them than what the Torah says to say.
DeleteThank you. You are a mensch.
DeleteCount me in. Lemaan haTorah lo echshe, ulemaan kvod chachomeho lo eshkot!
ReplyDeleteDT: can you confirm that this is indeed a member of the Weiss family? It would be unfair towards the Weiss' to have their alleged point of view presented by someone who has nothing to do with them.
ReplyDelete@author of guest post: Let me show in which ways AMW and his defenders cause a hilul hashem, in my view.
1) AMW contracted marriage and, contrary to what he promised in the ketuba never had the intention of providing for his family.
2) AMW treated his wife in a way that caused her to flee him. This may be due to her subjective sensitivity, but a real talmid chacham should be able to display enough respect towards his wife so that she does not feel mistreated or disrepected by him.
If he has not sufficient midot or sensitivity to treat his wife in a way that she feels loved and respected, should he really continue his studies in kollel? Wouldn't it be better for the torah world that he leaves kollel and take any profession, but nothing that will make him a Rabbi or a representative of the torah world?
3) Once his wife had left him, he was not available for negotiations or compromise, but went to court. It is fair enough that he goes to court, contrary to many I will not take issue with that. However, I take issue with the fact that
4) he sued his wife for child support. As far as I know, according to halacha, there can be no case where a wife has to supply child support or alimony to her husband, since in the ketuba, the husband promises to provide for wife and children, not the other way round.
5) he sued his wife for alimony. This, combined with the fact that he never provided for his family leaves the impression that AMW is greedy. If AMW wanted to avoid chilul hashem, he should have withheld any monetary demands towards his ex-wife.
6) AMW seems to think that, contrary to the decision of the court, his ex-wife owes him a compensation for legal fees. I cannot begin to understand that. He went to court, the issues were settled in the way the court saw fit, so there is no room for post-factum complaints.
7) AMW asks for 350'000$ for his get. This reinforces the impression that he is greedy. Again, greediness is a wide-spread caracter flaw, but I think that persons with this trait should abstain from representing the "torah world", lest they cause a chilul hashem. So: AMW does not belong in kollel, he should choose a profession that has nothing to do with rabbanut, torah, etc.
And now a few examples of how AMW's defender's caused a chilul hashem.
1) They seem to think it is OKfor a jewish man to get married without any intention of providing for their family.
2) They state it is OK for a husband who earns nothing to tell his wife how she should spend her money.
3) They state it is OK for a jewish man to claim alimony and child support from his wife.
4) They state it is OK to ask for a huge lump sum in exchange for a get.
5) They state that a wife who is for some reason disgusted from her husband should be "made to come back to him".
very bad arguments.
Delete1. not a complaint since they both knew and agreed that he'd be learning in kollel in the beginning.
2. totally subjective and neither of us know the real details of their married life
4,5,6, and 7 are not different points, but are all the same divided into different numbers. he never asked for anything besides legal fees, not alimony or child support.
Yes, dovy, this comment is a good example for what I was talking about...
DeletePpster "Well", you could not be more wrong:
Delete1) Gital agreed to this marital arrangement right from the outset before they were married.
2) Gital was never mistreated. No once in any way. Despite her bitter shmutzy NY Post article full of sheker of a bitter wife making bitter accusations without basis against the man she is bitter at. He treated her like a queen.
3, 4, 5) a) She unilaterally abandoned the marriage for no reason. b) She unilaterally kidnapped his child. She took the child out of their marital home without the father's permission. c) She unilaterally limited his contact with his child. d) She unilaterally refused to allow him to take his child outside.
6) She created an emergency situation where she kidnapped his child leaving him no choice but to go to court to regain access to his kidnapped child. Thus he got a heter arkoyos before going to court in this emergency situation.
If your child was kidnapped you wouldn't summon the kidnapper to beis din. You'd get the authorities immediately involved.
7) Due to the tremendous damage Dodelson caused Avrohom Meir, they are obligated to cover his costs he incurred due to their wronging him.
She agreed to this marital arrangement prior to marriage. And Halachicly, by default, every penny a wife earns is immediately owned by her husband. He is entitled to collect from her the damages she caused him. A wife is NOT entitled to a divorce just because she wants one. Even if she claims he is disgusting. Even if that is a legitimate claim (which in this case it is not.)
Here is another example...
DeleteWell,
DeleteWhile you got your education at Y.U. and support ORA and JOFA, most of the readership here are Chareidi and Yeshiva guys. Our hashkafos are far different than yours.
"They seem to think it is OKfor a jewish man to get married without any intention of providing for their family".--Are you talking about 90% of the shidduchim performed today, where the man has no idea or intention to provide for his family while he is learning full-time? Did Gital think she was marrying a professor, lawyer, businessman, CEO or a full time learner?
DeleteBaruch D. - fantastically well-stated and truthful inventory of Gitals grotesque moral and halachic violations.
Delete"Are you talking about 90% of the shidduchim performed today,"
Deletewell, if 90% of grooms in the hareidi world have no intention of keeping the promises they make in the ketuba, I suppose the hareidi world should do some soul-searching or change their label to "reform".
"Did Gital think she was marrying a professor, lawyer,..."
I suppose that the wife can claim support from her husband at any time, even if she waved her right to be supported for some time. furthermore, as far as I know, she has a right to be provided for according to the living standards she is used to. So, halachically, she could sue AMW every day he stays married to her to a quite large sum as alimony...
A husband does not have any obligation to support his wife as she is accustomed to by her parents.
DeleteAnd if a wife agreed prior to marriage to waive her right to support for X number of years while he is learning, she cannot retract that agreement without his consent prior to X number of years.
Just give her the Get and move on already. Holding up a Get to extort money and child custody is not halachically sound either. There is enough chillul hashem to go around on both sides.
ReplyDeleteShe owes him for the damages she caused him. He should not and need not give her a Get until all outstanding marital issues are halachicly resolved.
DeleteWhat about the damages he caused her? Its been four years already! Whose brilliant idea was it to go to court in the first place? It's obvious the marriage was doomed from the get go as there was no communication between them. Halachically resolved? Which Torah and which religion condones holding a woman hostage for four years in an ill conceived extortion attempt?
DeleteHer moredes action of unilaterally walking out of the marriage and grabbing, kidnapping, his son with her is the initial cause of damages. She had no right to take their son out of their marital home without his consent. No more than he would have had the right to take the child and moved somewhere else without her, without her permission.
DeleteThus she caused the initial damage.
he went to court with a heter because she kidnaped a child that is equally his from the marital home and refused to allow him to see his son in any remotely reasonable context. She owes him legal fees as damages for her selfish, destructive, immoral, and halachically unsupported behaviors.
DeleteChayim,
DeleteNobody asked her to wait so long to come to (and stay by) a negotiating table!
"Her moredes action of unilaterally walking out of the marriage"
DeleteIf she is a moredes, she is not entitled do receive the amount of money stated in her ketuba in the case of divorce.
As far as I know, she does not claim that amount of money.
So where is the problem?
the philosophy underlying your statement is that a woman should be forced back to live with a husband who disgusts her. I think that those kinds of statements are very damaging for the reputation of the torah and its laws.
A moredes is not entitled to a Get.
DeleteThere is nothing to apologize for Avrohom Meir not giving a Get. He shouldn't give a Get. Dodelson doesn't deserve a Get and she is not halachicly entitled to one. Let her stop her abuse of the Weiss' and compensate them for the damages she caused and owes them. Until then there's no obligation or reason to give a Get.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, 4 out of the 6 things you list have (on some level) the backing of the signatories of the Kol Koreh, the other 2, 1 is a stupid joke made by a less than brilliant girl, & the other one was a publicists private view. Are the Weiss's responsible for every one of the Gimmel aveiros chamuros the lawyer Uncle Yisroel found for Avrohom Meir does?
ReplyDeleteActually one is an outright lie. The Shira Dicker Newsweek reference is actually a total misquote but this claim:
Delete"Gital was quoted in the post saying she wanted to live with a man before marriage "
I challenge Anonymous Weiss family member (who asks people to put their names here in support when he/she clearly does not) to provide said quote from the actual NY Post. There is none.
Actually the quote was from the Times of Israel -
Deletehttp://www.timesofisrael.com/the-face-of-agunot-promises-to-keep-fighting-for-all-chained-women/
I just corrected the post
here is the quote,
“It’s kind of too depressing for me to even think ahead to this, given my current situation, but I do now understand why people live together before marriage,” she says. “I’ve even told my mother that next time I like a guy, I’m going to live with him for five years first. Of course I was joking. I know what I would and wouldn’t do — and I would never do that.”
Someone who cares about honesty (which you obviously don't) would write that she "joked", not that she "was quoted as saying she wanted". But as long as it furthers this irrational agenda of yours, DT, have at it.
DeleteUm, excuse me DT - do you have any responsibility to legitimate reporting? I mean besides for the fact that you constantly allow for unnamed sources to make claims ... that in and of itself is meaningless, but the fact that the writer, even from the wrong source, implied that Gital ACTUALLY stated she would live with a man completely OUT of context and excluding the main point, that she has empathy for the plight of agunos and specified she was joking and would never do that was done as an outright lie and it is the height of irresponsibility to allow an unnamed source to write such things on a blog you run without doing your own due diligence. He also misquoted Shira Dicker in the Newsweek and frankly this person is nogei'a b'davar and has proven himself untrustworthy.
DeleteDon't any of u know what a journalistic license is? GitAl was very upset when she saw how they wrote that. But even if she wanted to live with a guy for five years HE STILL HAS TO GIVE AGET. And let's remember why she is so traumatized that she even feels like she needs to get to know someone inside out first :)
DeleteAtara: It is a direct verbatim quote of Gital talking about living with a guy for five years before marrying him.
Delete"It is a direct verbatim quote of Gital talking about living with a guy for five years before marrying him."
Delete..taken out of context, since it was said "jokingly" and she adds that, of course, she would never do such a thing.
Gital said she understands "why people live together before marriage." That comment is not a joke, but a calculated and studied observation that gives support to the anti-Torah lie that sex before marriage and living together helps determine compatibility. This perverse perspective is not only anti-Torah, but it is not at all supported by the empirical research. In fact, there is an inverse correlation between long-term marital stability and living together before marriage, See this blogs earlier posts on this subject. Maybe people in the frum world nedd to date considerably longer before making a commitment, but living together is NOT an understandable option as Gital seems to believe, even though she says she would never do it. By saying it is an understandable option, she is giving moral and emotional support to many others who, rachmana lezlan, will be tempted to choose that option.
DeleteD. Anti-Torah Crusade - you're on a roll. Excellently stated.
DeleteUm Sally. Never speak if u haven't done ur research. Gital herself was upset w how the reporter skewed her words as reporters r won't to do. And who cares if she wants, doesn't want to or will??? That has no bearing on wether he needs to give her a get. Unintelligent ppl get lost among the irrelevant fringe details and don't focus on the facts. Best of luck to u
DeleteLament, we think alike. In the fact that we do proper research and are interested in the emes.
DeleteLament, we think alike. In the fact that we do proper research and are interested in the emes.
DeleteTemima,
DeleteAre you suggesting that everybody call up Gital and ask her whether the reporter quoted her correctly ? That is not research. That is idiotic.
Did you call up the reporter ? She might have said that she did not skew her words. That would be research.
Furthermore, once you speak to a reporter they own you and your reputation . She should have thought about that before she spoke to the reporter.
Furthermore, Chilul hashem is bayn shogeg ubayn mayzed.
You are right that it has no bearing on the Get. But this posting was not on the Get. It was to decry the chilul hashem.
" who came first, the chicken or the egg??" Let's say a Jewish man was attacking a Jewish woman for illicit purposes, and the woman starts to cry and scream in desperation for help. The fellow promptly looks her in the eye and says "BE QUIET-- Quit the publicity- you're gonna make a slanderous Chillul Shem Shomayim if people know what I am doing"
DeleteSometimes, its a good idea to be intelligent, educated and informed. And remember, Chillul Hashem means transgressing a Divine commandment. It makes no difference if it is public or not.
If the mainstream media has informed the world that Jews abide by specific divorce laws and the world doesn't think they are humanitarian- that's no desecration of G-d's name. Those are our laws and we are proud of them
Eishes Potifar yochiach. This is a classic example.
DeleteThe Dodelsons have always acted and continue to act with the guidance of R' Shmuel Kaminetzky. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteRav Shmuel Kaminetzky ordered the Dodelsons to take down their Facebook page, take down their webpage, stop slandering the Weiss, etc.
DeleteThe Dodelsons defied Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky. They refused to take down their Facebook page (and even updated it just the other day.) They refuse to take down the webpage. And they continue their libel and slander against the Weiss'.
That's funny, cuz I called R Shmuel, & he told me he wasn't referencing the Dodelsons rather he was referring to something (he wouldn't say what) that outsiders did... But don't let the truth get in your way.
DeleteI just got off the phone with Rav Shmuel. He does not support the Dodelson nor does he condone their reprehensible behavior.
DeleteInteresting that you claim to have gotten off the phone with him just now, when he's not at home currently- or in yeshiva.
DeleteThe only phones are in his home and yeshiva? Other places have no access to telephones?
DeleteLast I checked you didn't need to reach him at home or in Yeshiva in order to get through to R' Shmuel!
DeleteYeruchem - did your "Charedi" and "Yeshiva" education teach you that it is okay to lie? You are not fooling anyone.
DeleteRav Shmuel has clearly been pressured and manipulated, as many so called leaders unfortunately are. He nor any others who signed the kol sheker give no svara for their anti-halachic proclamations. Just because they carry the title of "respected" rabbis doesn;t mean they are above halacha. The real poskim in Eretz Yisroel who are not manipulated by Doddleson $'s (Rav Kanievsky, Rav Wosner,... etc), all agree that Doddleson's vile un-halachic tactics produce an invalid get.
DeleteDovevos is right. R shmuel put out the letter in response to something disgusting that the dodelsons didn't even know abt. And the letter was intended Kol zman there were serious negotiations. Since the weisses refused to show up in philly on Sunday those negotiations are over. It is very wise to research the facts prior to posting comments that sound exciting. Lack of research is a sign of an unintelligent person.
DeleteSheila Feinstein is an innocent bystander? LOL!!! She runs around calling Gital names & speaking negatively about her to anyone who would listen. This is not to say that it is or is not warranted- or if the Dodelsons are doing things just as bad, but saying that she's an innocent bystander is an out and out lie.
ReplyDeleteLiar. She did no such things and said no such things.
DeleteSo if I send a recording of Sheila Feinstein talking about Gital Dodelson in a derogatory manner to DaasTorah, he will post it? I'm not saying I have a recording, I'm just curious how you can be so sure, & whether DaasTorah will post things like that.
DeleteYou send me a certified copy and I will post it
DeleteOkay Mr. "Who do you think you are fooling". It's time to put up or shut up. Unless we see a recording you are a certified liar.
DeleteDT needs to clarify how a recording can be "certified" & I will then decide if I want to send it. He also needs to say clearly that that is the same standard of authentication he has used before posting any documents he has gotten from Weiss. For example, the Arbitration agreement that Weiss refused to sign which he posted here, and the letter from R Shmuel.
DeleteJust email it to him. Lets see if you got any goods other than a big mouth.
DeleteI think you are missing the point "who do you think you are fooling". Mrs. feinstein does not support AM. If speaking negatively about Gital makes you an enabler than you can put every Jew who read the enabler list. Halacha defines
DeleteI can easily take care of the certifying, her voice will give it away... (DT check your email)
DeleteEven if Rebbetzin Feinstein said something negative about Gital, which I have NO evidence to believe, it certainly does not mean that she is not entitled to say such a thing in self defence of her grandson. Context is critical to determination of whether any comment is appropriate or not. But the idea that someone should lose their job for verbally defending a relative in a conflict is truly sick and absurd!
DeleteI have this recording as well! She is screaming like a madwoman that Gital is a witch and a liar but when prompted to tell which lies; she calls the police! She is no innocent bystander!
DeleteI listened to the recordings - have not had them validated yet. She is not screaming like a madwoman though she does say that Gital is a liar and witch. Rather mild comments considering what Gital has done.
DeleteIf this is the evidence that the Rebbetzin is an enabler - than it makes Sentaor Joe McCarthy look like a saint.
Assuming the recordings are genuine it is a new low for Gital and her supporters - making secret recordings of snippets of private conversations and then using some understandably and normal negative comments about Gital to "prove" that the Rebbetzin is an enabler - out to get Gital.
Apparently on the basis of this "evidence" to publically call for a campaign of harassment againt the Rebbetzin as the quote from Gital's website shows.
Sheila Feinstein (grandmother), Staten Island, NY: Sheila Feinstein staunchly supports Avrohom Meir's get-refusal. Please contact her and urge her, politely and respectfully, to tell her grandson to give a Get. She is the principal of Shaare Torah Elementary School for Girls: 222 Ocean Pkwy, New York, NY 11218, Phone:718.437.6120"
I would suggest these people crawl back under the rocks from which they came from.
The recordings were made by two young ladies who came under murky circumstances to the Rebbitzen's school to speak with the Rebbitzen about the divorce. This was during the period which Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky said to stop the smear campaing against the Weiss/Feinstein family.
DeleteThey recorded the conversation without informing her and when she saw them recording it she demanded that they turn off the recorder.
I received the following message conveyed by a third party:
"She told me to tell you that she does not mind at all being called an enabler, she will help her grandson in any way she can against the vicious assault he is being faced with, and she loves him and his child very much."
In the Bracha of VeLamalshinim, we ask Hashem to remove from our midst any and all heretical teachings and thoughts, so that all will in unison wholeheartedly believe in the Torah SheBichsav and the Torah Shebe’al Peh. The Sefer Ya’aros Devash writes that when reciting the words U’Malchus Zadon/ VeHazeidim we should have in mind that we are davening for the destruction of Amalek (who attack us be’zadon). In fact, the Ya’aros Devash writes that we fulfill a Mitzvas Asei from the Torah of Zachor Eis Asher Asah Lecha Amalek when we have this Kavannah. We should feel an enmity in our hearts for Amalek, and pray that the enemies of Hashem and His people receive their just punishment (including any punishment we would deserve--for our sins stem from and through them), and that any bounty that they have or are to receive should flow through to us from Hashem’s Hand, Kime’az U’Mikedem--as in previous days.
ReplyDeleteA woman is not automatically entitled to a divorce, the Torah is quite specific about that. Arkaos is not allowed in even a legitimate case all the more so in the Dodelsons case where she used Arkaos to give her a civil divorce she is not entitled to any divorce period. She is a moredes. The fact is the money she cost the Wisses is gezela and kefel applies.
Next time you say the Bracha of VeLamalshinim have flexidoxism and the Dodelsons in mind.
powerfully put
DeleteI suppose, once AMW had sued his wife for kidnapping, filing for divorce was the only possible response on her side...
DeletePersonally, I do not see what is so bad about civil courts and I don't understand all the uproar about filing for divorce.
But even if you hold that one should not "go to arkaot", in this case AMW went to arkaot first and it is dishonest to blame gital.
To me, the case looks as if AMW tried every arrow in his quiver, halachic or not (that's why I do not think he is honest or a talmid chacham), and he lost them all. Withholding the get, get extortion is the last one he has... I suppose this one too will turn against him sooner or later...
don't you think it's harassment to publicly post someone's phone numbers and ask anonymous peopel to call?
ReplyDeleteI strongly suggest you check whether there is a legal problem in USA in doing this, since they might raise harassment charges - in arkoyos.
I dont know whether halachically it is permitted either.
Eddie you might be right. But the Dodelson's have been using this technique for a while . Do you have any problem if both sides use the same technique?
DeleteAny legal experts out there?
DT - I'd prefer neither side use it. It makes no difference to me personally, but a) 2 wrongs don't make a right, and b) I don't want my online Rebbe to have an expensive law suit against him!
Deletekol tuv!
This appears on Gital's website.
Delete"Sheila Feinstein (grandmother), Staten Island, NY: Sheila Feinstein staunchly supports Avrohom Meir's get-refusal. Please contact her and urge her, politely and respectfully, to tell her grandson to give a Get. She is the principal of Shaare Torah Elementary School for Girls: 222 Ocean Pkwy, New York, NY 11218, Phone:718.437.6120"
Actually they have a category of those they wished to be harrassed entitled "enablers"
DeletePLEASE CONTACT THESE PEOPLE AND URGE THEM TO STOP ENABLING AVROHOM MEIR WEISS!
HE MUST GIVE GITAL A GET!
Sheila Feinstein (grandmother), Staten Island, NY: Sheila Feinstein staunchly supports Avrohom Meir's get-refusal. Please contact her and urge her, politely and respectfully, to tell her grandson to give a Get. She is the principal of Shaare Torah Elementary School for Girls: 222 Ocean Pkwy, New York, NY 11218, Phone: 718.437.6120 .
Rabbi Reuven Feinstein (grandfather), Staten Island, NY: Rabbi Feinstein is the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Staten Island, where Avrohom Meir is enrolled in Kollel. Avrohom Meir SHOULD NOT be allowed to study in yeshiva until he gives Gital a Get. You can contact the yeshiva here: 1870 Drumgoole Rd E, Staten Island, NY 10309, Phone: 718.356.4323 .
Yosaif Asher Weiss (father), Staten Island, NY: Yosaif Asher actively supports his son’s refusal to come to Bais Din and refusal to give a get. He runs the whole show. He ran the whole legal battle, paid all legal bills, testified against Gital in court and made all decisions. He has said openly, “There is no trustworthy Bais Din in the world.”
Yisroel Weiss (uncle), Edison, NJ: Yisroel actively supports his nephew’s refusal to come to Bais Din and refusal to give a get. He runs the show together with Yosaif Asher Weiss. He found the lawyer and didn’t miss one court day. He submitted affidavits to the court, testifying against Gital. According to Avrohom Meir he is a “paid consultant” who he needs to pay for his professional fees. He is their spokesperson. Everybody who calls them is told to call Yisroel Weiss. Gital has emailed Avrohom Meir asking him to give her a get and he answered “talk to my uncle.”
This is not his first Agunah case. A few years ago, he led the charge for his brother-in-law, there also ignoring a Siruv from Bais Din and withholding a get in exchange for money.
Eddie,
Deletewhy have you not posted anything over the past three months against the Dodelsons posting many phone numbers of different Weiss family members?
Btw, it is not illegal in the U.S. But it is very immoral. But the Weiss supporter responding in kind, above, is completely correct in answering fire with fire.
CD - I have avoided this subject because i have no involvement or knowledge of the case, and I don't wish to get into armchair divorce cases .
DeleteMy concern for the DT website was that it might get into legal hot water if the Doodles are vindicitive. In the UK, one could call this harrassment.
Plus, DT is a reasonable person - I doubt the doodles would listen to my sage advice.
Eddie: 1) RDE does not live in the U.S. 2) This is not illegal in the U.S. (Otherwise the Dodelsons would be rotting in prison right now since they did exactly this.)
DeleteI think we should flood the Doddleson business with moral complaint phone calls if they continue their harassment of the Weisses
DeleteI agree with "Well" above that the writer of this post may not be a Weiss supporter. The post is so absurd that it damages their case.
ReplyDeleteDAAS TORAH,
ReplyDeleteI respect you a lot even though I disagree with some of what you write. It was wholly inappropriate of you to publish Gital's cell and her parents home number. I know you literally hate the Dodelson's and your attacks ooze through these pages but that was completely out of line and I am calling you out for it. Shame on you, apologize, and retract. To my understanding (although this may be wrong) Rav Reuven's yeshivah number ONLY was given out and even if the Dodelson's did give out personal numbers, despite what Frum Yidden of today may think, two wrongs DO NOT make a right.
Why have you not posted anything over the past three months against the Dodelsons posting many phone numbers of different Weiss family members?
DeleteThe Dodelsons have published MANY family members home and cell numbers and have done so for over four months already. Suddenly you wake up now?
DeleteC Davidson,
DeleteFirst of all, I'm certainly not "waking up now." Second, you obviously believe that 2 wrongs do make a right, unfortunately Torah, Halachah, and Middas HaYashrus don't agree with you. I'm sorry. Third, I clearly said I may be wrong about home and cell numbers, I was aware they posted Rav Reuven's shlit"a yeshivah's number. I also stated clearly if you read my post which you didn't, that if they did it is STILL WRONG. Cite me a link that shows the Dodelson's have posted people's home phone numbers or cell numbers.
C Davidson,
Delete"Answering fire with fire"? You are obviously unhinged and should seek help. Yes, you are right, it is fire, this despicable spreading of machlokes by adding people's phone numbers and addresses. Well done, let the whole Klal Yisroel burn down so you can prove a point. Are you in second grade? Do you and these others (who intend upon publishing people's personal information) realize you are all machzik b'machlokes and will all be omaid b'din for this. Hashem forgive you and you should learn to calm down, but obviously like DT, you are a close friend or family.
I see - no one can publish the Doodleson's phone numbers but they can not only publish the Weisses numbers, but get anyone associated with their son-in-law fired so they have no parnassa, therefore risking health and life.
DeleteEddie,
ReplyDeleteBless your heart I did not read your comments before I posted. DT "Any legal experts out there?" What a coward who claims to defend halachah and Torah of Gittin ONLY and disregards the entire halachos of rechillus, motzei sheim ra, lashon hara, and the rest of Shulchan Aruch (embarrassing others, adding much fuel to the fire of a horrible machlokes, ridiculing Gedolim who don't side with your views, and speaking about Gedolim and others in horrible terms). What a fraud who claims to care about only one section of halachah (obviously quite a big one) and disregards so much else.
what's the problem ?
DeleteCan only one side go to a Rav and get a heter to throw out the torah when it comes to gitin. ?
Dovevos says that he called R' Shmuel and the Dodelsons can still do all those aveiros .
People who don't do extensive research prior to letting their opinions go public are not fit to be let loose in the world. I challenge you to contact me with any of your questions in this issue. I guarantee well researched and first hand answers. Pmorris151617@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteI just called Gital and gave her a piece of mind. You should all call her.
ReplyDeleteI just asked Gital if anyone called her and she said she has random numbers calling but no one has ever spoke , just heavy breathing. Is that you?
DeleteMy breathing is quite soft. But it went to voicemail anyway as she did not pick up the call.
DeleteLove ya Joyce
DeleteSally. Ur pen seems to lie on its own. I thought u gave her a piece of mind? Give the get!
DeleteHello, Ever heard of voicemail?
DeleteImagine if Avrohom Meir decided to leave the marriage, abandon Gital, and took their child and moved to a new home. Imagine the uproar that would cause. He takes the child with him to his new home and decides their child should live with him and not Gital. The Dodelsons would have gone on a murder rampage suing everyone's pants off, etc.
ReplyDeleteYet that's exactly what Gital did to Avrohom Meir. And Avrohom Meir is supposed to take it sitting down? He's done so far too long already.
Sally = TRUTH!
DeleteAnother vote for "Sally = TRUTH!"
DeleteTake 3
Deletethere is really a problem here.
ReplyDeleteDT keeps saying that GD smeared weiss...there was one article that was covered in a few places.
DT has regularly smeared GD. count how many posts DT has put up about her and how many comments were written. how many weeks has DT kept this in the frum news?
many in our community do not have facebook. this whole article would not have gotten all this attention if not for DT postings. many do not read the ny post or other magazines so they only know about this from DT.
even though DT is not officially AMW. DT seems to be the PR person for weiss.
why complain about dicker when DT is doing the same and possibly much worse (of course all in the name that this is daas torah!)
something just seems wrong. i can not imagine that this is what Rav Feinstein would want.
if you really are concerned about the two sides negotiating a compromise you do not need to leak to the public the ongoing details. it is not a help.
why do people use the word kidnap. many go home to their mother after they give birth. he knew she was in lakewood . she did not go into hiding...
even if GD was willing to support after marriage, there is a kesuba. there is a value to the kesuba. so AMW not paying that can go towards his legal expenses.
was AMW promised life time support? if not then after the yrs of agreement to support it would have been his responsibility to support his son. if they forgive most of that then he can put that amount towards repaying his legal bills
Hashem should help all the sides come to a peaceful agreement
i have a practical idea. instead of everyone reading and commenting on this blog why not have DT do a great chesed. if AMW needs money to cover his legal bills why not start a campaign and raise the amount of money that AMW needs and let the request for money be taken off the table.let it be a campaign for helping peace move ahead. i am sure that people will contribute $10,$18 or more to help bring an end to this battle. i would hope lelui nishmas Reb Moshe all would join . give it all your effort . use your PR campaign in a way to bring a solution... hatzlacha Rabba
You mean to say that only the Dodelsons can go on a smear campaign against the Weiss', but the Weiss' need to be good little yingerlach and sit down and get all smeared while still smiling and of course never responding?
DeleteAnd no one who sees this travesty is allowed to stand up for the Weiss'?
Thank you - EXACTLY. I was actually happy to see over the past few days that he had let go of this topic, but then today ... so disappointing. There is a vast array of Jewish blogs out there and none have been so committed to this topic and in the most obvious biased way as DT. This has only become a forum from which people can continue to smear both sides and spew hatred and contempt. Even the word you use DT when sharing the groups "enabler" page ... that they want them to be "harassed" is indicative of the smear you are personally responsible for casting on the Dodelsons. They request no such harassment, they only request that they are "petitioned" to influence AM to do the right thing.
DeleteWhen GD took THEIR son to her parents house, did she discuss it with her husband first? did she make a mutually satisfactory arrangement for each parent to be with the child or did she act unilaterally? By her own words in her shmutzy NY Post interview, she packed up Aryeh and left. That is unilateral action and it is therefore kidnapping.
DeleteFirst of all, there were at least 3 articles, a website, and a facebook campaign. All led by GD!
Deletehttp://nypost.com/2013/11/04/orthodox-jewish-womans-plea-for-a-divorce
http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-face-of-agunot-promises-to-keep-fighting-for-all-chained-women
http://www.newsweek.com/divorce-orthodox-jewish-community-can-be-brutal-degrading-and-endless-3082
SetGitalFree.com
https://www.facebook.com/FreeGital
Secondly, Yes, Gital kidnapped his AMW's child. She left the home with the child over a month after the child was born. She describes in more detail her Post article. Apparently you are missing quite a few details, because they were living in Lakewood at the time. She may not have been in hiding, but kidnapping doesn't have anything to do with hiding, rather use withholding if that makes you feel...
The Dodelsons already agreed to pay the money if full, that's not quite the issue anymore... but as the Weisses put it "The child is not for sale!". The problem is that the Dodelsons would like the poor child to have a Step-father instead of AM; they would like AM to be out of his own child's life!
yes, yes, YES
DeleteTime to move on you are obsessed with this case. It isn't healthy nor does it do any good to put it out for all the umois haolam to see.
ReplyDeleteThis is someone else's dirty laundry, if they choose to wash it in public, should we aid them?
If one side and all their followers would just stop all fighting, the other side would have no one to fight with.
After a little while they would realize, that they have to negotiate with good will. My kindergarten teacher told me it takes two to make a fight.
"This is someone else's dirty laundry"
DeleteNo - it is OURS. And it's growing exponentially. I see it happening in a variety of grotesque forms in BD struggles in E. Yisroel, including within my own family. This struggle is extremely relevant to each and every member of klal Yisroel. The integrity of the family unit is our very lifeblood. We MUST get it right...
It is posts like this that make it harder to achieve a settlement because anonymous people keep spewing lies and hatred. I thought we established that the parties were close to a settlement. If so, how does it help to post this?
ReplyDeleteI am sticking to my policy of not commenting on, and trying not to judge, a divorcing couple based on competing one-sided accounts on the internet. However, I have to say that many of the comments supporting Rabbi( or Mr.? I don't know his proper title) Weiss are making it hard not to have sympathy for his wife.
ReplyDeleteHere we have the original poster taking a comment clearly identified as a joke in his source material as a serious intent to violate halacha, other comments praising withholding a get to force a monetary payment as a positive Torah value. Rabbi Eidensohn (in an earlier post) takes Ms. Dodelson's statements from a publicly available article states what he says is her position in a manner that anyone who read the article he claims as his source would recognize as highly biased. Multiple people describe a woman taking her infant (less than 6 months old and presumably nursing) with her when she moves back into her parents' home as "kidnapping".
I am sure I am not the only one who finds these posts written to support Rabbi Weiss counterproductive, and having the opposite effect. With friends like some of his online supporters Rabbi Weiss doesn't need any enemies.
Gee, I am having the polar opposite reaction when seeing a bunch of zombies posting comments single-sidedly supporting Dodelson. That causes me to sympathize with Weiss.
DeleteImagine if Avrohom Meir decided to leave the marriage, abandon Gital, and took their child and moved to a new home. Imagine the uproar that would cause. He takes the child with him to his new home and decides their child should live with him and not Gital. The Dodelsons would have gone on a rampage suing everyone's pants off if that happened.
Yet that's exactly what Gital did to Avrohom Meir. Where is the end to this hypocrisy. Don't tell me about nursing. If we establish that the child was always bottle-fed, would you then be okay with Avrohom Meir walking out of Gital and taking the child to his parents home without Gital?
Oh, its only okay for Gital to do that. I see.
I am sure I am not the only one who finds these posts written to support Dodelson counterproductive, and having the opposite effect. With friends like some of her online supporters the Dodelsons doesn't need any enemies.
No, it wouldn't be OK, but it wouldn't be kidnapping either. Nor did I say Ms. Dodelson's conduct was OK, but it also wasn't kidnapping. Or anything close. There is a huge gap between proper behavior and kidnapping, and using such loaded language is inexcusable. Unfortunately, a parent taking the child or children when leaving the family home as a marriage fails is fairly common, and I never heard it called "kidnapping" in any other case.
DeleteLook, the Torah requires both of the parties to a strained or ending marriage to treat each other properly. (or for that matter an intact marriage.) This would seem to include working out an appropriate arrangement for care of children.
Meanwhile, Rabbi Eidensohn says he keeps posting this material to defend the Weiss family's reputation. If he recognized how counterproductive this is and stopped doing so, there wouldn't be comments on either side.
That terminology is entierely appropriate. Look at the Federal Parental Kidnapping Act or the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act (adapted by nearly every State), which refer to one parent unilaterally relocating a child out-of-State as kidnapping.
DeleteOkay, if you don't like the term kidnapping then call it something else. I'm not all hung up on the terminology. But even you agree it was wrong for her to snatch the child and run off with the child to her parents home without the child's father.
DeleteEven if you see this a lot it does not make it any more correct by even one iota.
And THIS is the major issue. THIS is the ENTIRE basis of this entire dispute. The removal of the child from the father's home without his consent. The is NO justification for this. And this is the cause of all further problems in this case.
Like I said, if the father snatched the child and left his wife behind while taking his child to his parent's home to live I am quite certain there would have been a major uproar and it would not have been tolerated the way it is tolerated when it is the wife who snatched the child.
Don't call it kidnapping If that makes you feel better. Call it what you want. But the facts are the facts and that is what happened.
practical-your logic is very convoluted. The public's initial reaction, mine included, was poor Gittel, poor little girl with a controlling husband, and now she is stuck, but as her methods were revealed, as more facts were revealed, it became very obvious that the situation is not at all as originally presented- if anybody is obviously showing controlling mannerisms it is GD not Weiss-she has her powerful family on her side - they have gotten her tremendous support, but that wasn't enough for her, she had to make a chillul Hashem and bring all the dirty details of this case with two of our finest families publicly hung out to dry, people who have dedicated their lives to spreading Torah and Emes are now available for everybody to take potshots at - whether the facts printed are right or a little tainted. It is not DT who has publicized this, it is facebook, ny post, firing long time employees of artscroll, demanding that people abuse the Yeshiva of Staten Island - come on - DT just evened the score a little bit by printing some of the facts that the Dodelson camp had not seen fit to mention. In my humble opinion the only one that can solve this situation is one or a team of the big BMG donors, who are the only ones (not the chashuva Rosh Yeshiva, R' S Kamenetzky, not gentle R Greenwald) only the $$$$$$$, who can force BMG to sit down to a reasonable negotiating table, and to preclude them from taking future revenge against AM Weiss, and perhaps everybody will forget this nightmare, and the child will have a possible normal future.
ReplyDeleteI FIND IT ASTOUNDING THAT SO MUCH ENERGY IS INVESTED IN GITALS CASE DUE TO DOLLARS BUT ALMOST NO ONE IN AGUDAH SEEMS TO CARE ONE IOTA ABOUT AT LEAST 15 BABIES A YEAR IN NYC ALONE THAT ARE BEING INFECTED WITH HERPES BY METZITZA B' PEH (according to Rav Herschel Schecter) AND AT RISK OF LOSING THIER LIVES OR THEIR NORMAL BRAIN FUCTION. IN FACT THE AGUDAH LIES ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM AND LIES ABOUT THE FINDINGS OF THE U OF PENN REPORT THAT DETAILS THE SIGNIFICANT DNAGER IN THISPRACTICE. SINCE WHEN IS PIKUACH NEFESH PUSHED ASIDE FOR A PRACTICE THAT MANY POSKIM SAY IS NOT NECESSARY OR SHOULD NOT BE DONE?
ReplyDeleteOUR BABIES HAVE NOTHING EXCEPT US TO PROTECT THEM AND GITAL HAS ALL THE MONEY CONSCIOUS AGUDANIKS ON HER SIDE. Not sayong she shouldnt receive her get after a beis din of mutual agreement paskens such, its just an astounding imbalance of priorities and energy on the part of so many Agudah "leaders".
I did speak with someone on the Weiss side before to hear their side of the story, but can someone explain to me, if they are convinced they are right, and they deserve monetary compensation, then go to a beis din. The fact is, they did take dodelson to court, some say with a heter, some say without, but that's over. Now to go further, if there is still arguments, then the two should meet in a beis din and let beis din decide who's right.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I can't figure out who advised him to go to court to begin with, even with a heter,to sue for alimony,child support, you are asking for a fight. A question to this relative, if you could go back in time, would you have chosen this route? Would you be meagen yourself for so many years?
He did not sue for alimony and child support in the original court appearance. Yes, the court docs. say that but a NJ attorney explained to me that in NJ you cannot file a cliam that involves custody without also addressing support of the child. So you cannot legally avoid having the issue presented in the papers. What the weisses did do is tell their attorney not to make an issue of it in court and to say that they are not actively seeking any financial arrangement, they just wanted an interim visitation arrangenment put in place. I cannot possibly vouch for this, I wasn't there and did not witness anything. I am presenting here what I have been told by a family member who is not involved in the proceddings bu speaks to them.
DeleteYou missed my point. I said assuming they had a heter for all the stuff they sued, was that the correct advice ? Wouldn't they have been better off in a beis din? Even now, instead of mudslinging each other, the correct approach is beis din. You would think that after over four years that at least go to a beis din both agree with.
DeleteHe did sue for child support in the original court appearance. And he really got what he wanted, since he wanted both parents to sustain his child. Only that he hoped that he would be the parent who would have custody.
Deleteoriginally, child support was fixed at 220 $ per week, later reduced to 98 $ per week.
I wonder what sum he asked for. Might be those 220 $.
It would be dishonest for him not to be ready to pay the sum he asked for...
There are two points here. Firstly, he had to go to court in order to insure visitation, otherwise she would just keep on withholding the child from him. Secondly, the way the family court works, it's almost impossible for the father top end up with the custody. Therefore, in order for him to get a reasonable portion of visitation, he requested more hoping for the compromise which he got.
Deletei believe that the true way to handle these vicious attacks by the women, is to form a new type of bais din system that will obligate both man and woman to follow halacha or face the consequences. Here is my version of a balanced verdict. 1) The man will deposit a GET at the outset of the case. 2) The woman will be told that this GET is conditional and will be null and void if she were to return to civil courts for any reason after the Get is issued without permission from the bais din. In this way, perhaps a man will get a more favorable verdict in regards to child support, alimony and custody, and the woman will be assured her Get. The problem is to assure a bais din system where the rabbis will not accept bribes and issue permission to either party to return to civil courts. If the woman truly returns to courts afterwards and tries to undo the bais dins rulings, then it will be apparent to everyone that she has caused to herself an invalid Get. I once heard that in the olden days, the Dayanim wore masks over themselves, so no one would know their identity and try to bribe them. We also need to dismantle ORA as its organization is no different than the fake "animal rights movement" that has been caught murdering animals, photographing them and then pleading with the public for donations to help 'SAVE THESE INNOCENT ANIMALS FROM SLAUGHTER" BTW , I just saw Gitels name appearing at a mamzer alert website: http://mamzeralert.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteWhy dont both parties agree to a zabla beit din on remaining issues?
ReplyDeleteI have been wondering...it seems clear from both the Mechaber and the Rema in Even HaEzer 134:21 that coercion (protest and the like) is only sanctioned in the specific cases listed in that siman, among which the Weiss-Dodelsson case does not appear.
ReplyDeleteI have the utmost respect for the following Rabbanim who illuminate the world with their Torah and guidance. These Rabbanim seem to support the validity of forcing a get through monetary coercion, and if anyone wants to question, why, according to the source listed above and on this blog, such coercion is valid, these Rabbanim can be reached at the numbers listed below. Rabbi Malkiel Kotler Shlita: 1-732-370-4904 and Rabbi Herschel Shachter: 1-212-795-0630.
I apologiz that should be Rabbi Herschel Shachter SHLITA as well
DeleteThe organization ORA believes that it carries out G-ds work. However, e question needs to be asked of them as well. Please contact ORA and clarify with them that nothing they are doing is above Halacha. ORA 1-212-795-0791. Rabbi Jeremy Stern (president): director@getORA.org
ReplyDeleteDaddy, What Are You Waiting For?
ReplyDeleteAs you push your son on a swing or show him how to hold a bat,
Do you tell him you are waiting for a solar eclipse, is it something like that?
Do you tell him you are waiting on world peace, or for the stars to be aligned?
Or do you tell him, don’t worry son, Ima doesn’t mind….
Are you waiting for a bounty hunter’s reward for a criminal you haven’t caught?
Or is it for a hero’s medal for wars you haven’t fought?
Are you holding out for the century to turn or the cure for cancer to be found
How do you explain to him that you want Ima to be forever bound
What are your thoughts as you twiddle your thumbs and watch your hairs grow
Is it on how to spend $350K, an expensive watch, a shiny new car for show,
What is it you are hoping to attain; a Pulitzer to hang up?
Is it the Nobel Peace Prize or the Stanley Cup?
Are you looking for a rolled out red carpet, for your intro music to play?
Are you waiting for fireworks to go off and a preceding parade?
Is it for doves to be released, and confetti to rain?
What is it you want from Ima that warrants such a delay?
Where does your mind wander when you pray to your maker,
Do you justify yourself to God for all the pain you have caused her,
When all is quiet and still, does your greed and ill thoughts remain?
When will you stop? How far will you go to keep her chained?
As your face beams with pride when you talk about your son,
Does his face mirror your own when he sees all you’ve done,
As you lean in and tightly give him a hug
Do you say you won’t release Ima, “just cuz”, with a shrug,
How much longer will you pull the wool over your little boys eyes
How will you explain Daddy’s need for control and all your lies
Can you honestly tell your son, you did it for him?
Or the truth, that Daddy always has to win?!
Will you tell him that Daddy is the king and Daddy is always right,
Will you teach him to never give in and to never go down without a fight!
Will you teach him to never show compassion and to never be kind
Never to be good or selfless, and always to defy,
Why don’t you tell him you’ve grown up and become a man,
Tell him you are ready and willing to wave the white flag
Tell him you are taking off your armor and laying down your weaponry
Tell him you will put it right and set Ima free
Thank u Joyce. Let's go AMW give a get!
ReplyDeleteNO I'M WAITING FOR GITAL TO STOP TRYING TO DESTOY A BEAUTIFUL FATHER -SON BOND AND TO STOP TRYING TO THROW 3000 YEARS OF TORAH TRADITION OUT THE WINDOW WITH HER ORA TACTICS WHICH ARE MOTIVATED BY HER ALL CONSUMING AND VINDICTIVE MEGLOMANIA!!
ReplyDeletehow should she keep the father son bond? should she stay married to him and all live happily together? What do you advise?
DeleteJoyce,
DeleteShe should simply stop badmouthing the child's father and relatives, publicizing lies, degrading their Torah knowledge, disrespecting the child's legacy. She should teach her child that although his parents don't live together, they work together. They work together, so that he, Aryeh, can grow with the most potential. That he, Aryeh, has 2, yes two parents that love him, and want him to succeed.
Gital is killing this poor child by degrading his father in his eyes. Gital is killing this poor child, by publicly (impossible to completely remove) shaming his father, his grandfather, hours great grandfather, and his great great grandfather, R' Moshe Feinstein.
How will this child respect both of his parents after seeing what Gital did to herself, and what she said/wrote about AM?
I read this blog a lot and I'm curious about something. It's often said that Gital "kidnapped" her child when she left. Is it halachically permissible for a wife to leave her house after a rift? If so, what other option did Gital have other than to bring her one month old baby with her? Are you really suggesting she should have left him behind? Or just that she shouldn't have left at all? In which case, you are saying that wife has, in practice, no right to leave her home when she has young children.
ReplyDeleteNo, the child does not belong to her. The child has two parents. Instead of unilaterally relocating the child, she should have gone to Beis din (or a court if she doesn't believe in Beis din) for permission if she wanted to take away the child.
DeleteDo you believe any woman has the right to just pick up and take a child or children wherever she pleases whenever she pleases?
No she does not have the right to harm her child. It would be harmful to separate a one month old baby from his mother, a temporary separation from the father cannot be compared (many girls go stay at their parents for a month after the first baby is born and sometimes the father can only be there on weekends and this arrangement strikes no one as harmful to the child). If Gital had permanently prevented her husband from seeing his child she would be harming him of course. But she didn't, she went to Beis Din within a reasonable timeline (and I would be surprised if even without a formal custody agreement, Avraham Meir never saw his son in the intervening months). So what you're saying is that for the few months it would take to get the process going (I speak of course of a normal case where both parties cooperate with Beis Din) Gital should have remained with Avraham Meir. I.e. a woman with young children has no ability to leave her husband even temporarily.
Deletethe child was a month old, can the dad nurse the child??
Deletedid you do research at all? She went to Bais Din... get your facts straight.
DeleteNo, it is not Halachically permissible for a wife to leave the house after a rift. Shalom Bayis is VERY important. Elu dvarim SHE'EIN lahem shiur - Vahavoas sholom bein ish leishto, chaz"al knew well that things must be worked out again and again. All the Yidden cried when Aharon the Kohen Gadol was niftar, because he found Shalom Bayis extremely important and as the foundation of Yiddishe Botim, and there is no future without it. You, that goes for both and all, get off your high horse and look in the mirror and ask yourself, is this what you honestly want, or this is playing hard to get. If he didn't tell you, Honey, we need to talk, then you be the smart one to be the Nachshon ben Aminadav, I guarantee you, both as winners.
DeleteShe left in anger and in spite. When you get married you don't escape from your marriage, running home to ima, you work it out. She has problems so do others, some more, some less, but they work it out. If you hadn't acquired the fine art when growing up and don't know how, you go to a marriage counselor and he will assist you. If you don't do the performing, and don't want to reach out for help, no one else can do it for you. Running away from home and your problems, bigger problems in life will be chasing after you. I hope by now you learned your lesson, it is just so sad that your precious innocent child has to pay the price for it. I wrote this as an eye opener, without an ounce of animosity. And for you my dear G. Supporter, kindly stop fanning the flames, there are no winners in this matter, only losers.
The idea that a child can be separated from the father without damaging the child-parent relationship but not the mother, or that is harmful to be separated from the mother but OK to be separated from the father is total hogwash. It is based on research during World War II and found that very young children who were raised in terrible orphanages under the horrendous conditions of the time were much worse off than young children raised by their parents because the children in orphanages did not have any attachment figures. The research does not show that mothers are any more important to young children than fathers. The research does not in any way show that young children can have only one attachment figure.
DeleteNo, Gital did not go to beis din to ask for permission to relocate the child. She just did it, as she proudly boasts in her New York Post article.
DeleteOf course Gital has every right to unilaterally relocate the child and unilaterally determine when the child could spend time with the father and for how long. It is not a big deal because the case will eventually come before a court or beis din within several months.
DeleteAnd at that point, the court or beis din must rule that the child should remain with Gital and see the father according to the custody schedule that Gital had unilaterally set, because to do anything else would be harmful for the child because the child is already accustomed to that custody arrangement.
There is something called baby formula. If Gital believed that is so important to feed the child herself than she should not have left. She does not even claim that either she or the baby was in any danger had she stayed and tried to work out the marriage.
DeleteAnd had she even the slightest concern for the welfare of the child, she would have tried to work things out.
The free gital website just forwarded joyces poem to a wide emailing list EXPLICITLY DEFYING REB SHMUELS PSAK. and Joyce, your meter is just a wee bit off, not unlike your worldview. I do not think anyone thinks AM will have more to explain to his son than Gital does.
ReplyDeleteEliana. Once again u r jumping before being smart. Set Gital free website did not send that email. :) I did! And r shmuels letter only stands when there is negotiation which there isn't now. My email is very similar. U have thrice proved my point that u r unreliable for in depth and true facts.
DeleteHow come Weiss holds of r shmuel when he sign a letter protecting them but the Kol korei is not valid to then?
DeleteAtara I suggest you are the one who is clueless. I have been told that negotiations still are going on - though they did take a break on Sunday.
DeleteP Morris,
DeleteHow come the Dodelson's hold of R' Shmuel when he sign a kol koreh for them but when he signs a letter against them it is not valid ?
Here might be another dodleson phone number. Not sure but I think its gitals father whom we dont hear anything about. Try 732 814 5671
ReplyDeletechilluk hashem bifarhesya the Feinstein family do not condone your action. You are causing a chillul hashem and reducing an esteemed family to evil-doers in the eyes of the nation. Shame on you for having brought shame upon this family.
ReplyDelete