Tuesday, June 26, 2012

Rav Gestetner: Bitul Seruv or Nidui?

Guest post by Rabbi Tzadok   

Introductory lines:
Since the discussion about Rav Gestetner's " bitul seruv"  got fairly hot and heavy, and deviated quite a bit from what was written in the "bitul seruv" I thought I would do the public a favor and translate what I thought was the most interesting, as well as most problematic part of it, the fourth paragraph.  What follows is my own copyrighted translation, used here with permission, and my analysis:

And fear should arise upon the heads of the dayyanim that brought forth is worthless seruv that with this they have committed serious and terrible sins: that of "Embarrassing your neighbor" and that of spreading malicious false slander.  Their destiny then is explained in the Mishnah, Gemarra, Rambam, Tur and Shulhan Arukh that they will have no place in the world to come, that they will descend into hell and never arise that they will never have forgiveness.  And aside from all of that they are also under excommunication according to the ruling of the Rambam "All that pronounce excommunication upon someone not deserving of excommunication [there is included in this those who distribute a worthless seruv] they themselves are excommunicated.  And so they will come to feel that the world is not lawless(ChV"Sh).  And our sages have already said, all of the gates were locked except the gate of fraud, and see in the Beit Yosef that those who cry out over being defrauded are answered immediately, therefore know that this is a dangerous game of playing with fire.

My response:
I am presuming that that Chareidi Rabbanim who wrote the rather respectful letter to Rav Reuven Feinstein asking for his assistance in this matter are also included in this. 
If the Bitul Seruv of Rav Gestetner was just that, a simple Bitul Seruv, one might actually have to stop and think about it briefly.  Yes it would have been done in clear violation of halakha, in that one Beit Din(especially one that appears to only have a single Dayyan) is not supposed to cancel the rulings of another.  However, this goes from odd to flat out wacky in a heart beat.  Without too much beating around the bush he accuses these Dayyanim(and Rabbis) of corruption, fraud, and numerous other things.  Furthermore he(a single Rav) places an entire Beit Din, and four important and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim in Nidui, simultaneously declaring that they have no place in the world to come, and that they are going to burn in hell forever.
First thought.  I didn't realize that Neviim had returned that could make such pronouncements against Gedolei HaDor.   Second thought?  I need to check my calendar to make sure that this isn't Purim or April first or any of those other trickster holidays, because that kind of language at at Rabbanim and Dayyanim of that stature is just flat out insane.  Even the Nasi of the Sanhedrin(if we still had one) couldn't write something like that under his name alone.  The Chutzpah here is astounding, as well as being another flagrant violation of halakha Choshen Mishpat 3:2-3:

2 If fewer than three (4) judge a case, their ruling has no legal standing [5],even if they did not err, unless the litigants had accepted them to be the Dayanim, or the judge is a Mumcheh L’Rabim (acknowledged expert) (5)[6].(In our times (6), though, there is no such thing as a Mumcheh L’Rabim (7) who can judge a case against a litigant’s will [Mahariv, Siman 147). As longas there are not three (and the litigants did not accept them as judges, and [7] (8) neither are they Mumchim L’Rabim) (Tur) even if they received semicha in the Land of Israel,...
3 Although someone who is regarded as a Mumcheh L’Rabim is permitted to make rulings by himself (9) [10], our Sages command (10) that he seat others to join him.

31 comments :

  1. shaar hamishpat is a proper bais din that has a few dayanim serving. rav gestetner is the secretary. they dont charge and go according to a true din torah and therfore they irk the traditional batey din. it's a known thing that machon and other like minded batey din are not to be trusted and their dayanim are biased. it's very unfortunate and you can ask anyone who went to a din torah in these places. maybe it's about time to start a blog about bais din abuse!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Halakha requires that all Dayyanim sign a psak din. Here we have only one. So we must assume that it was judged by a single Dayyan. That that single Dayyan put an entire Beit Din and four Gedolei HaDor in Nidui, is completely baseless in halakha.

      Especially since a public records search here indicates that Weiss and not Dodelson initiated the court proceedings unlike what Rav Gestetner wrote in his psak.

      Delete
    2. You must be from Zambezi because my son had a din torah and found out that Rabbi Rosenberg of Mechon Lehoroa was the gold standard for honesty and discretion.

      Your sources are biased and incorrect.

      Delete
  2. Reply to Tzadok:
    "It is forbidden for a Beit Din to mevatel the ruling of another Beit Din. "

    Tzadok is once again employing erroneous and obfuscating halachic claims in his desperate attempts to validate his position, instead of focusing on the facts of the divorce case being discussed.

    One can obtain the kuntress "Mishpatim Kechilchasam" by sending an email to pdf@sendfast.org with the number 5002 in the subject field.

    In seman thirty one (p. 45) of that kuntress, many sources are brought which allow a Bais Din psak to be contested when errors are found, and which require one Bais Din to inform a Baal Din of errors committed by another Bais Din - Tur, Rosh, Pischei Tshuvah, Maharsham, Rashbah, etc.

    Even those who hold by Baba Basra 138b (Bais Din basar bais din lo dayeki), allow an erroneous Bais Din ruling to be contested, due to the prevalence of Bais Din errors.

    Baba Basra 138b, if it was to be applied, could only be applied where a litigant signed a shtar birurin and appeared before that Bais Din. In the Weiss case, Baba Basra 138b cannot even be applied at all since Mr. Weiss apparently never signed a shtar birurin with the Bais Din that issued the so-called seruv against him.

    Nice try, Tzadok, but as usual, your attempts to mislead the frum public will fail.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Talk about obfuscating. My main contention here isn't that a one man Beit Din(we have to assume one man as no other Dayyanim signed, and according to the Shulhan Arukh ALL the dayyanim are supposed to sign the Psak Din).

      To make it perfectly clearTHE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY SAW FIT TO PLACE AN ENTIRE B"D AND FOUR GEDOLEI HADOR IN NIDUI. That is a huge problem.

      Delete
    2. A great perversion of Torah justice is occurring nowadays.

      Due to feminist, political, and profit motives, a large number of utterly bogus seruvim are being exploited to harass and defame Jewish husbands who seek halachic resolution of their divorce disputes. Many of these husbands are being denied access to their children while their wives are mosering them in archaos. The wicked ORA organization and their henchmen are particularly adept at exploiting these fraudulent seruvim.

      In response to this perversion of Torah justice, Rav Gestetner in his letter addressing the Weiss case simply quoted Yorea Deah 334 and other halachic sources stating that whoever imposes a bogus nidui should himself be placed under nidui.

      Anyone who doubts that bogus seruvim are being exploited for feminist and political motives, should ask themselves: When was the last time they ever saw a seruv issued against a Jewish lady involved in a divorce dispute?

      Delete
    3. To your your first point obfuscation and red herring. ORA just recently got involved. A Chareidi Beit Din issued that Seruv 15 months ago.

      Following that 7 months ago four highly respected Chareid Gedolim wrote a very respectful letter to Rav Feinstein asking for his assistance(and aside from ORA propaganda, there is no reason to believe that he did not provide whatever assistance is halakhically permissable).

      Next point. Rav Gestetner bases his whole psak on an innaccurate assumption that Dodelson was the plaintiff and filed charges, when in fact, by following the above link that I provided anyone with two eyes, a keyboard and an internet connection can see that this is not the case. Weiss was in fact the plaintiff. He went to Arkaot against his wife the way Mechon L'Hoyroa claimed. I'm working to get hard copies and then they will be posted on my blog and Rav Eidensohn has said he may post them here.

      Then following this false assumption, Rav Gestetner proceeds to accuse a Chareidi Beit Din, and four highly respected Gedolei Yisrael of corruption, fraud, and motzei shem ra. He places them in nidui and says they have no place in the world to come.

      Whether or not there are bogus seruvim floating around is another attempt to obfuscate and throw out a red herring. Oh and your buddy rabbiniccorruption has posted several seruvim against women.

      Delete
  3. Reply to Tzadok:
    "And our sages have already said, all of the gates were locked except the gate of fraud, and see in the Beit Yosef that those who cry out over being defrauded"

    Tzadok, you've mistranslated the Gemara in Baba Metsia 59b which was cited near the bottom of the Bais Din SharHaMishpot letter addressing the Weiss case "Kol hashaarim n'naalim chutz me shaarei onaah".

    The "onaah" referred to in the Bais Din letter translates as oppressive words, not fraud as you claim. Furthermore, the Bais Din letter also quotes the Bais Yosef in reference to "onaas devarim", ie oppressive words, NOT fraud as you claimed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'll gladly play the dictionary game with you.

      Jastrow, Dictionary of the Targum, the Talmud Bavli and Yerushalmi and the Midrash, Hendrickson Publishers 2005 p 28 oppression, wrong or fraud.

      Reuven Alcalay The Complete Hebrew English Dictionary column 40: Decieit Deception, cheating, imposition, fraud.

      Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon Page 413: suppress, oppress, maltreat, defraud

      Admittedly I translated the first Onaat as fraud(probably should have done Fraudulance) because that is how the Beit Yosef is typically read. If you had deceitful words and then Fraud, the word play would not have made as much sense.

      Now you must really be getting desparate if that is the best come back you have to me pointing out that a ONE MAN Beit Din, put AN ENTIRE B"D AND FOUR GEDOLEI YISRAEL IN NIDUI. Please hunt me up a source of how that is at all not a clear and flagrant violation of halakha.

      Delete
    2. Tzadok, your reply
      "I'll gladly play the dictionary game with you."
      is further evidence (we've had plenty already) that not only are you unqualified to learn a simple peshat in Gemara, you're blatantly unqualified to issue opinions on Choshen Mishpat and Gittin matters.

      Rav Gestetner SHLITA cited the Gemara in Baba Metsia 59b "Kol hashaarim n'naalim chutz me shaarei onaah". You erroneously claimed this Gemara is referring to "being defrauded" (onaas mamon), while it is clearly referring to onaas devarim (verbal oppression). See the proceeding discussion in the Gemara and the proceeding Mishna.

      Delete
    3. Nice try. But again this is pure obfuscation. The real matters at hand are:
      1) Gestetner invented facts as the court documents submitted by Weiss' attorney on March 18 2010 list him clearly as the Plaintiff and his wife as the defendant(out of respect for wife's request I will not be publishing them on the internet though Rav Eidensohn is in possession of a copy and he can verify).
      2) Gestetner based a Bitul Seruv on these invented facts so it has no basis.
      3) Gestetner placed an ENTIRE BEIT DIN and FOUR GEDOLEI YISRAEL into Nidui, accusing them of heinous sins, based on these invented facts.

      If you have an answer for any of those three points, instead of obfucating by arguing over how to translate a word play so that it will be understood by non-Hebrew reading public, I will gladly shoot your lame attempts at a defense of the indefensible down.

      Delete
    4. Emes L'yaacov has pointed out well that you are incapable of even learning pshat. Instead of wasting our time why don't you spend more time learning how to learn instead of misleading the few readers who can't learn and rely on you for the wrong pshat.

      Once again R Gestener didnt pull out his writing s froma hat. Take it on with the shulchan aruch etc. His sources are real unlike your transaltions of the letter.

      Delete
    5. as for point one what is there to hide? If she is publicly humiliating her husband why not let us know what is in those documents? Afraid that your case might fall apart?

      Had you bothered to get all the facts before you condemned him you would have some credibility, but since you did not bother to research before you came out against him it only shows you are a foolish hot head who tries to fool people with your false piety.

      Delete
    6. 1) If Gestetner were trying to learn gemmarra and talk about the daf, then fine. However once he added, and see in the Beit Yosef, which is clearly talking about fraud, it is apparent to anyone who can learn pshat that he was making a drash, and not talking about the intention of the Gemmarra and preceding Mishna.
      2) Got the facts. He invented them. The husband was the plaintiff not the wife.

      This is such a blatant and flagrant violation of halakha that all you have to answer it with is a lame ad-hom.

      Delete
    7. for somoene who cant learn simple pshat as you have shown twice already within this post. I would suggest you leave it to the professionals before you continue to show everyone what a true am haaretz you are. anyone who passes judgement before seeing all the facts is a true fool which you have displayed numerous times.

      How many people are living in Israel again?

      Delete
    8. Twice? You mean you and your sockpuppet repeating the same lame argument? That counts as twice.

      Let me translate this the way you want, "And our sages have already said, all of the gates were locked except the gate of oppressive, and see in the Beit Yosef that those who cry out over being defrauded are answered immediately."

      You now have a nice broken sentence in which the second half does not agree the first half. I'll gladly translate Gestetner more literally if you like, I wouldn't mind painting him as a rambling fool, which is what that would do.

      But then you and your sockpuppet would try a different lame attack of saying that I was incapable of understanding the nuance of what he was trying to say, and the rules of drash.

      So unless you can prove that either Rav Gestetner was specifially referencing the subject of that Gemarra and preceeding Mishnah, and the two halves of his sentence have no relation one to the other. Your argument fails.

      Now if you would kindly answer:
      1) Why did Gestetner invent facts?
      2) How a one name B"D has any halakhic authority in contrast tot he Sh"A.
      3) How a one man B"D can put an entire B"D and four Gedolei Yisrael in Nidui(granted if we pile up all the Rabbanim that Gestetner has put in Nidui, we have a veritable who's who of the Rabbinic world).

      Delete
    9. Once again spinning, attack me and emes lyaacov, for calling you out when you cant learn simple pshat . when you are able to learn simple pshat and bother to get all the information before publicly being mevazeh someone then maybe people here would take your opinions seriously. till then continue with your nonsense.

      Typical ora tactic attack with lies to those who speak out against them . Fact is r' gestetner has written several seforim and is an expert, you on the other hand, who are you? you are a foolish man writing on the internet with an inability to even learn simple pshat. You have no clue what goes on here in america or what politics are involved with the bes din system. You couldnt even get the info on r' wachtfogel right. I guess r' eidensohn and his brother are corrupt too, according to you. They did their research and vouched for r' gestetners beis din. I will take their word against yours any day of the week. keep repeating your stupidity of a one man beis din when r' eidson confirmed that it is not.
      As for you lie about r' gestetner making up facts I guess according to you r' wohleindr z"l was corrupt and a liar too. Foolish man that you are keep rushing to judgement without getting all the facts. Stan has called you out on your foolishness and all you keep coming back with he is a racist.
      If you really knew how to learn you would realize that even one word even letter can be worth worlds of wisdom and change the whole meaning of something. Instead you make a joke of it.

      As for you knocking r' gestetners marei mkomos, he quotes many reliable sources. if you have the audacity to knock him and portray his sources as the rambling of fools then you are in the same boat with Jeremy Stern! Koifer!

      Tzadok, you are an unrepentant fool. You have been mevazeh R' feinstein by posting horrible lies and misinformation about his grandson and the people who he has reached out to (i.e. r' gestetner, ybdl an r' wohlendir z'l). Please stop claiming this has nothing to do with r' feinstein because it does. It his grandson and you are causing reb reuvein tzar by defaming his descendants.

      Delete
  4. MAybe if tzadok wouldn't be so busy on the internet being mevazeh talmediie chachamim who he doesnt agree with and instead spend some time learning and checking into the facts, maybe he wouldnt be michsol everyone with his nonsense!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You Can't Handle The TruthJune 26, 2012 at 10:06 PM

      I guess that this comment counts as a response to somebody...

      Delete
  5. The player here should raise the eyebrows of anyone with any remnants of rational thinking and morality. While this "dayan" supposedly does not take money, and this is viewed in contrast to the blanket accusation that all other dayanim and batei din are corrupt, there is a widely known truth that is being overlooked. It is one thing to challenge a beis din on halachic grounds, which may be debated, but is at least understandable. This bitul seruv goes far beyond that, in which this "dayan" attacks a much greater number of recognized gaonim and talmidei chachomim who have as much halacha expertise as he does. He does not just disagree, but has the azus ponim to place them in cherem. What a disgrace.

    This "dayan", whom some wish to consider a star of kedusha and Torah wisdom, is disqualified by countless rabbonim and batei din world over, and recognized as a paragon of corruption. I would not feel qualified to make any statements about him, though, if I knew anything about the case itself, I'd be free to give my opinion. The issue in this post is the "bitul seruv" and the authority to do this. I concur with the matter of the dubious credentials of this "dayan". His reputation of being the sole figure responsible for creating well over 100 agunos with his shenanigans proceeds him. Anything he does is considered suspect by an overwhelming percentage of mainstream rabbonim and dayanim, and pointing out the flagrant blasphemy in this instance just follows a consistent pattern for him.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Don't forget how Stan and his cohorts are worrying about calling Gedolim names when they are guilty of the same thing. I don't see where Tzodok called anybody names, just pointed out the obvious . A Beis din that many people do not recognize, that went and put numerous Gedolim in cherem and nidui, was mater cherem drabeinu Gershom, and when Reb Shlomo put a stop to it, they made a huge a מחאה against him, because Reb Shlomo was following the shulchan aruch.
      Besides all this, someone who holds back a get for two and a half years, run to such a Beis din to find a heter for secular court will not get any respect from me. Whoever considers this normal, isn't frum IMO.

      Delete
  6. if you know nothing about the case it would be advisable that you keep quiet. If you are on his level of learning then maybe you could challenge him. As far as the rest of the readers on this blog we are not as gullible as you are. Face it, R' gestetner stands up to the feminists and the corrupt botei dinnim out there he also brings marei mekomos for his rulings so if you have any issues with it take it up with the shulchan Aruch etc. Its one thing if he made his sources up but he doesn't, they are all real.

    As a side note you claim not to make any statements about R gestetner but in the previous sentence before that you trash him. YOu make accusations about him with nothing to back it up

    Go back to your false messiah Jeremy Stern for answers. In the past he has called R belsky misguided. THink about it a stupid am haaretz shnook at YU has the chutzpah to call someone almost old enough to be his grandfather misguided. I guess this falls under morality also according to your rationale where Jeremy Stern is helping create a MAmzer problem that is righteous and just.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You Can't Handle The TruthJune 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM

      OK, let's say we all agree that Jeremy Stern is a problem.

      I'd like to see what "Emes" has to say about;

      Rav Nota Greenblatt

      Rav Malkiel Kotler

      Rav Elyah Ber Wachtfogel

      Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky

      Try without being mevazeh talmidei chachomim.

      Delete
    2. Jeremy Stern has not said anything nearly as defamatory about Rav Belsky as have his opponents on this blog.

      Delete
    3. You Cant Handle The Truth June 22, 2012 5:44 PM
      wrote that "Ora may be radicals with no endorsements in the Chareidi world, but in this case the point is moot. What will you say when the rally is attended by Kotler and schustal?"

      Before you lecture me on Derech eretz why don't you practice what you are preaching. at least this time you added the name rav.

      Guess what none of the those rabbanim showed up to the protest so you are the one that is a fool!!

      Delete
    4. You Cant Handle The TruthJune 27, 2012 at 3:47 AM

      Emes, that's a great answer to my challenge. But regardless, I was told that The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva were asked by the family not to attend so as not to overshadow the purpose of the rally. Rabbi Kotler's mother attended as did his brothers in law, Rabbi Krupenia, the rosh kollel of lakewood & Rabbi Reich. As for Rabbi Schustal, his oldest son, a Shoel Umashiv in BMG, was the one who led the tehillim, and another son was more or less directing the rally. So if that's all the egg I have on my face, I'm cool.

      Now how about you stop distracting from the issues we are discussing and answer a single challenge put before you?

      Delete
    5. first you look like a fool you made a challenge before the rally and you were dead wrong ,they were a no show.

      Then all you go around posting on post after post that "you were told". Who were you told by? were you at the rally? No you weren't. Who came to the rally? The YU ora nut jobs and the family of the dodelsons and close friends and maybe a rabbi or two that is in their back pocket.

      Fact is nowhere in those letters did they say to support ORA. Keep trying to fool everyone with your narishkeit that the Rabbanim support Jeremy Stern the koifer!

      How befitting that the rally was the shabbos after Parshas korach was read. The people who caused tzarr to reb reuvein should tread very carefully. Take a lesson from the weeks parsha because korachs mutiny did not end well.

      Delete
    6. If the rabbanim who supported her thought that ORA's actions were inappropriate they would have come out against them.

      Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky's letter, though read otehrwise by the moderator, states that he is aware of what ORA is doing. This is the same man who had to "clarify" his comments regarding metzitza b'peh. If he opposed these rallies, he would say so.

      None of the rabbanim in this case oppose ORA's action and as of yet, there is not one respected haredi gadol who has come out against ORA or its rallies. Not one!

      Delete
    7. You Cant Handle The TruthJune 27, 2012 at 10:01 PM

      I was at the rally, and you sir, are either a liar, delusional, or just incapable of recognizing a fact if it walked up to you and smacked you upside the head.

      Delete
    8. Actually James, most rabbanim in the chareidi world think that Ora is so insignificant like a dog barking in the street. Do you think they would respond to the a dog? Kal vchamor to a emotionally disturbed person like jeremy stern that is why none of them showed up to this rally.

      Delete
  7. Rav Kolko shlita continues his winning streak and is ACQUITTED in EIGHT MINUTES of jury deliberations!:

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn_rabbi_acquitted_of_all_lhibSUTLOHHWKZQlx6w95J#ixzz1ywl2zEWh

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.