I recently had a long conversation regarding with someone who wanted to know how to deal with someone who was really very nasty. The person under discussion was constantly putting down those who disagreed with him. He was always tossing out cruel barbed statements and put downs against those whom he viewed as having moral or psychologica lweaknesses. He was focused on absolute obsessive control of his familyand children and plotted against his enemies and isolated his wife and children from their influence. The person who spoke to me - asked me as a psychologist - how to deal with such a person who was destroying so many lives. The assumption was that there was something seriously wrong
with the person. A psychopath perhaps or borderline personality. My response was simply that while the person was not nice - in fact was downright nasty - this was a theological issue more than a psychological issue. The person she was describing was the prototypical Litvak. There are many statements in Chazal and halacha that can support such behavior (of course there are many sources in rabbinic literature that also reject such an approach). Thus when I hear that some tzadik rejected his parents or his own children - to preserve the religiousity of the rest of the family - it has a familiar ring.
The question is now that we live in a society where the values of mussar and interpersonal sensitivity are the supreme value, where religious values are supported and maintained by being a nice person - can this pure Litvak be justified? This question obviously is irrelevant to a pure Litvak because emes is emes and there is little relevance of soft and cuddly values of modern psychology which are condemned as goyish.
They focus on malchus and din while for most of religious Jews in our contemporary society these have been replaced the attributes of mercy and kindness.
I was once studying a mussar sefer in the beis medrash when Rabbi Friefeld walked by. He saw the name of the sefer and simply closed it. "This is a good mussar sefer," he said. " But it was written for the European who was toughened by a very hard life. For that type of person you could only get through to him by a powerful blow and shocking statements. You are an American and are too delicate for this talk of Gehinom and torture for your misdeeds."
In Western society, the obsessive religiousity of the Litvak - as described in the famous letter of the Gra to his wife - is viewed as disgusting and psycholgically sick. The need to control and the teaching of submissiveness by beatings as described by Rav Dessler - is simply viewed as a chilul hashem. The ranks of those who go off the derech are considerably swelled by this type of religion. That is why most Litvaks today are actually a mixture of Litvak inviduality with chassidic psychological and social sensitivity and sefardic love and respect of tradition.
The question becomes one of whether you are willing to live with the losses. Rav Dessler in his famous pience on producing Gedolim says that the Litvaks were prepared to accept the loss and destruction of even the majority of students leaving yiddishkeit - in order to produce gedolim. Is there still a place for the pure Litvak in our present society?
Whats this post have anything to do with the Hersh lawsuit?
ReplyDeleteI see no problem with the Litvak prototype. It doesnt suit your taste? Do your own way, and the Litvak will continue his.
BTW, many chasidim (i.e. Hungarian) share these attributes with Litvaks.
Interesting post. Are you sure the cruel barbed statements and putdowns are really pure Litvak, or supported in our tradition? It is a sin to hurt someone with words, right? And anger is akin to bloodshed and idolatry, right? Isn't it written somewhere that one should not be a tyrant to one's family? The Talmud reports that R'Akiva said no one in his generation was qualified to rebuke someone -- so much more in ours!
ReplyDeleteThere are definitely sources that suggest that today, a different approach is needed. Look at this:
[Rabbi Shlomo Wolbe writes:]
"In the early nineteenth century, Rabbi Chaim Volozhin declared, “These days, people will not listen to harsh language.” If we speak to people harshly, they cannot hear what we are saying. People only hear soft, pleasant language. We have no choice but to speak softly. Rabbi Chaim Volozhin concluded, “And someone whose nature makes it difficult for him to speak softly, or who angers easily when others misbehave or refuse to listen, is exempt from the commandment to offer rebuke.” This was Rabbi Chaim Volozhin’s ruling over 140 years ago: One who angers easily cannot rebuke another. How much more applicable is Rabbi Chaim’s ruling today, especially when it comes to disciplining children."
http://www.shemayisrael.com/jewishobserver/archives/fringe/rwolbe.htm
From another article:
"For the record, there are other quotes from our chazal (sages) that support potching children, and many contemporary poskim concur with that approach. But our great rebbi, Rav Avrohom Pam, z’tl would often comment that this is an instance of “Halacha v’ain morin cain” – [even though] halacha may support potching, we do not ‘paskin’ or apply this method nowadays. Our rebbi explained, that due to the enhanced sense of personal freedom and individual rights nowadays (and this was a generation ago), hitting children is unwise and counterproductive."
"More than 650 years ago, the Ritva (1250-1330) noted that the gemara prohibits hitting a grown child [only] since it is more likely that an adult would strike back. However, he says, that if even a young child (yeled) is of the temperament to lash out verbally or physically when hit, the prohibition is extended to him as well. I would suggest that in our current society and culture, where corporal punishment is frowned upon and often viewed as abuse, it would stand to reason that the practice of potching children be categorically suspended across the board."
http://www.vosizneias.com/24716/2008/12/24/new-york-chosech-shivto-soneh-bno-spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child-not-meant-to-be-taken-literaly/
More generally, I think you may be onto something. The warmth and spirituality of the Chassidic and Sephardic approaches may be more appropriate for today. I have seen a few articles recently about people coming out of the yeshivah system who feel like no teacher ever talked to them about spirituality or G-d -- and this turned them off from Judaism.
Interesting post. Are you sure the cruel barbed statements and putdowns are really pure Litvak, or supported in our tradition? It is a sin to hurt someone with words, right? And anger is akin to bloodshed and idolatry, right? Isn't it written somewhere that one should not be a tyrant to one's family? The Talmud reports that R'Akiva said no one in his generation was qualified to rebuke someone -- so much more in ours!
ReplyDeleteThere are definitely sources that suggest that today, a different approach is needed. Look at this:
[Rabbi Shlomo Wolbe writes:]
"In the early nineteenth century, Rabbi Chaim Volozhin declared, “These days, people will not listen to harsh language.” If we speak to people harshly, they cannot hear what we are saying. People only hear soft, pleasant language. We have no choice but to speak softly. Rabbi Chaim Volozhin concluded, “And someone whose nature makes it difficult for him to speak softly, or who angers easily when others misbehave or refuse to listen, is exempt from the commandment to offer rebuke.” This was Rabbi Chaim Volozhin’s ruling over 140 years ago: One who angers easily cannot rebuke another. How much more applicable is Rabbi Chaim’s ruling today, especially when it comes to disciplining children."
http://www.shemayisrael.com/jewishobserver/archives/fringe/rwolbe.htm
From another article:
ReplyDelete"For the record, there are other quotes from our chazal (sages) that support potching children, and many contemporary poskim concur with that approach. But our great rebbi, Rav Avrohom Pam, z’tl would often comment that this is an instance of “Halacha v’ain morin cain” – [even though] halacha may support potching, we do not ‘paskin’ or apply this method nowadays. Our rebbi explained, that due to the enhanced sense of personal freedom and individual rights nowadays (and this was a generation ago), hitting children is unwise and counterproductive."
"More than 650 years ago, the Ritva (1250-1330) noted that the gemara prohibits hitting a grown child [only] since it is more likely that an adult would strike back. However, he says, that if even a young child (yeled) is of the temperament to lash out verbally or physically when hit, the prohibition is extended to him as well. I would suggest that in our current society and culture, where corporal punishment is frowned upon and often viewed as abuse, it would stand to reason that the practice of potching children be categorically suspended across the board."
http://www.vosizneias.com/24716/2008/12/24/new-york-chosech-shivto-soneh-bno-spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child-not-meant-to-be-taken-literaly/
More generally, I think you may be onto something. The warmth and spirituality of the Chassidic and Sephardic approaches may be more appropriate for today. I have seen a few articles recently about people coming out of the yeshivah system who feel like no teacher ever talked to them about spirituality or G-d -- and this turned them off from Judaism.
I come from Europe.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a little child of a few years old, I have heard terrible, terrible imagery of things that would happen for various transgressions. By the way, they were very vivid, because - well - it was the previous generation experience. By the way, the rabbi knew very well i was absolutely non observant, and being a child, it was not my fault. (To his credit, he reserved the mussar to bad things done to fellow humans, as he knew very well that my family wanted nothing to do and I wanted nothing to do. But he also made sure to talk of this world's tortures, to make sure it's something I care about.) I would find it hard to repeat even in private and even to a grown-up Rabbi. I don't tell to my children. Times have changed.
It is also true that there was much emphasis on "a mitzva done by a rasha". My personal opinion is that it should be emphasized more.
I don't see what this has to do with Hersch. Mussar made people better person (perhaps less observant that they would have been with a "warm" approach, but not bad people and not dishonest people) and this rasha did his best to ruin his own child. Mussar was given in good faith and to oneself first - I doubt this is the case with the Hersch affair. And mussar was given to people along with loads of love. In our days, when someone cares, we are astonished.
Oh by the way, this same person who said such terrible things was the same who inconvenienced himself personally and asked everybody - including those less-than-zero religious - when it came to raise money for this and that who had done something wrong and had been imprisoned and now they needed the best lawyers and may be some bribes too. And, guess what, people gave. Because it was clear he always tried to help. Before he tried to dissuade, and after he worked to fix.
May be we need more people like that?
Of course if one feels comfortable with a different approach, there are 70 paths to Torah. But it has become so difficult to find a good-hearted and learned person who is honest and upon whom to rely, let alone finding one with whom we feel comfortable personally. This is the real problem. In the meantime everyone goes to yeshiva and kollel (with someone else's money.....)
What's really difficult for me to put up with are all the Hungarians who pretend to be haisseh Litvaks.
ReplyDeletePhilly yeshiva & the Agudah fresser convention are certainly not my cup of tea.
The spirit of the classic pre-war Litvak is gone, The last gedolim of that derech were Rav Moshe and rav Yaakov. The leadership of the derech degenerated to Trooper like rabbis. Their rabbis come with the most outrageous psaks like it is no child abuse if there is no penetration. (that rabbi incidentally is a pre war rabbi)
ReplyDeleteWhile the spirit is gone, the study approaches and their fashion continue to grow in influence and now you have r’ Ovadia Yosef dresses like eastern European rabbi.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/07/contract-catch-of-the-day-the-army-needs-a-torah/60499/
ReplyDeleteI never understood R' Dessler's approach. Is he saying that the people of Klal Yisroel (meaning Jews) are of no value? Is the system he espouses supposed to produce gedolim for the benefit of these gedolim? I thought he meant that having gedolim would ultimately be more beneficial for Klal Yisroel. It's been a while since I saw it, maybe I made a mistake. If so, it would be extremely disturbing to me.
ReplyDeleteAgav, I remember reading somewhere on some kind of avodah mailing list or something that R' Eidensohn suggested that perhaps R' Dessler was talking specifically about his generation, when the need for talmidei chachamim was desperate and great. Am I remembering correctly? What evidence is there of this?
Also, can the Rav list a few places where this kind of behavior is lauded by chazal?
We had R' Zelig until a year ago. Maybe we have one left in America with R' Chaim Stein (no one else comes to mind) and etliche in Eretz Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteYou are talking about abstractions and not about real flesh and blood people.
ReplyDeleteYou need to define what you mean by the word "Litvaks" here. Are you referring to an abstract construct of an "ideal proto-typical" Talmud scholar? In any cse, the ascetical, mysterious and hidden Vilna Gaon was non-typical of all Litvaks although he was one himself. Litvaks do not even pasken like the Vilna Gaon even unto today. In prayer, nusach HaGra is not nusach Ashkenaz. They ruled by other poskim and minhagim like the Chayei Odom. The first Lubavitchter Rebbe the Baal HaTnaya was also a Litvak by yet he is very different to what you are describing. The Baalei Mussar were Litvaks but not all preached "tough love" for their disciples or the masses while they imposed it on themselves.
The real true-blue Litvaks of old are by nature and nurture both caring and loving, both kind and loving, respectful of family, children, elders and community, as anyone who has met them will know. They are not martial "Prussians" as you seem to indicate.
It is a huge mistake to portray the Litvaks as being such a tough bunch. Anyone who has met true Litvaks, and their are precious few true Litvaks left alive today, meaning Jews born and bred in the greater Lithuania region, will know that they were the most refined and gentle souls one could hope to meet. The words eidilkeit and mentsclichkeit defined their essence.
Lithuania was one of the poorest parts of Europe and the Jews struggled there. They had no time for the supposed tough theories of the GRA when they had to care of more basic needs like bread and clothes. They wore rags yet they gladly attended yeshivas and chedorim and their brethren who migrated away helped support their poor and those of their families left behind in Lithuania. The Litvishe rabbonim were eidel and menstchlichdik. They were refined, kind, happy and well-educated in Torah, limud HaTorah, and in their personal middos having highly refined characters and personalities.
So neither your description nor Hersh's behavior matches in the remotest instances what true Litvaks were like either as scholars or as humble Jews!.
"In Western society, the obsessive religiousity of the Litvak - as
ReplyDeletedescribed in the famous letter of the Gra to his wife - is viewed as
disgusting and psycholgically sick."
What does this say about the current state of Judaism ? The GRA belonged with the Rishonim! He is miles and miles ahead of any of the Acharonim... I get a kick everytime I hear a chassid quoting the Vilna Goan but this is a testament to how far ahead the Litvak Torah thought was and in many ways is to the rest of Judaism. It is widely known that the Litvaks are the leaders today. Ponzevah and Brisk is akin to Harvard and Yale for secular America. The problem with Judaism today is the lowering of standards. Its good to have a strong Litvak approach to counterbalance the "pyseudo feel good" Judaism which is almost empty of any rebuke...
I strongly protest the terrible carricature of Litvaks that you present here.
ReplyDeleteI believe you are of Litvishe background, but with Lubavitch roots, so you may have picked up the Hassidic stereotyping of Litvaks and are passing it on here. Either way it is wrong and improper.
FYI, the GR"A, despite how great he was, was not the typical Litvak, and his pesokim were not followed by the Litvishe hamon am, just by some of the elite.
Ditto re Rav Dessler, he was not universally accepted, on the contrary he was seen as deviating from the derech of Lita with his incorporating of Hassidic teachings in his lessons, for example.
'Rav Dessler in his famous piece on producing Gedolim says that
the Litvaks were prepared to accept the loss and destruction of even the
majority of students leaving yiddishkeit - in order to produce gedolim.'
That narishkeit was not the typical stance of gedolei Lita.
As pointed out by commenters above, you can find some of the things you criticize above in various groups, including Hassidim. Do you stereotype/carricature them too, or is it just open season on Litvaks, while they get a free pass?
By the way, I have doubts if Mr. Hersh is actually of Litvishe descent.
Please be more careful and don't invoke these hateful stereotypes, even if the Litvaks are sometimes treated nowadays as (lihavdil) WASPS and made fair game for various jokes and barbs.
Was this a guest-post by a kanoi Chabadnik or other type of Chassidic kanoi? The portrayal of Litvaks here is ridiculous. Since when is it the Litvak approach to reject scientific disciplines as "goyish?" That is the chassidic approach!
ReplyDelete"Lithuania was one of the poorest parts of Europe and the Jews struggled there. They had no time for the supposed tough theories of the GRA when they had to care of more basic needs like bread and clothes. They wore rags yet they gladly attended yeshivas and chedorim..."
ReplyDeleteYes, all 10 of them that attended yeshivas did so gladly.
Obviously Damiel dpesnt like Litvsks...
ReplyDeleteIn other news...
"Student V said... Yes, all 10 of them that attended yeshivas did so gladly."
ReplyDeleteNow that is truly a funny and absurd response. Did you perhaps mean the at least ten major yeshivos that flourished in Lithuania?
And there were more than ten major yeshivos in the areas where Litvisha Yidden lived such as Telz, Mir, Slabodka, Kelm, Ponovezh, Brisk, Volozhin, Grodno, Kaminetz, Kletzk, Novaradok, Pinsk and others as well as many by now forgotten chedorim and talmud torahs in every shtetel, derfel, towns, villages and even on farms where there were hundreds of kloizen where men and boys would come to daven, for some only on Shabbos, and for others a place to sit and learn, some part-time some full-time.
Note that over time some of these yeshivas were not governed by Lithuania itself because Lithuanian territories were annexed by Poland or Russia but many of the Jews with ties to the main centers in old Lithuania remained Litvaks as the older larger Lithuanian kingdom was once spread as far south reaching the Ukraine and over huge chunks of north-eastern Poland and north-western Russia.
This is a serious blog, please get your facts straight.
Student V is being ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteLitvaks were the undisputed top lamdonim in Europe and he mocks them as having barely a minyan vos hobben gelernt in yeshivos?
I too am surprised by Rav Eidensohn's sweeping characterization of Litvaks although I might agree about Rav Dessler's derech.
ReplyDeleteI had one of his talmidim as a rosh yeshiva. He was very tough and tried to impose European standards on American bochurim as young as 13. Just an example of what kind of mindset he had, he once called the entire yeshiva into the beis medrash to scream at them because he heard that some boys were listening to non-Jewish music. It had actually been going on for decades but he was oblivious and hit the roof when he first learned of it. This yeshiva was not exactly Beis Hatalmud in Bensonhurst. Many boys came from modern orthodox homes and it was much more modern than Kaminetz was in Boro Park 20 years ago. It was the only in-town yeshiva I have ever heard of where everyone was forced to live in the dormitory. Bochurim were constantly suspended over the most minor of infractions and you would get in trouble for so much as uttering the words "shut up". Throwing a snowball would get you expelled. The rosh yeshiva assered boys washing their sweaty selves during a 3 day Yomtov despite that such luminaries as the Mishna Brurah, Rav Aron Kotler & Rav S.Z. Auerbach are mattir. The yeshiva would conduct raids all the time, kicking everyone out of the dorm wing while they spent hours tearing the place apart to look for verboten contraband such as radios , board games and comic books. They would also confiscate limudei chol homework to compare the handwriting to graffiti on the bathroom stalls.
I have always wondered how many boys were turned off from learning there. In fact, this yeshiva had an extremely low rate of alumni who ended up in Lakewood or any other beis medrash.
I find many of the comments here as well as the article itself thought provoking. Here are some reactions.
ReplyDeleteThe title establishes a mindset for the article about the Hersh saga while not making specific mention in the article itself. The message levied at Litvaks (definitely arguable whether this pertains to Litvaks, but certainly a valid assessment of some people we know) is about tragic inconsistency between core values and actual practice. In the article, there is a subtle pointing of that finger at those responsible for the atrocities in the Hersh affair, including the original placement, the anti-Torah positions taken to prevent and sabotage the rescue mission, and the current lawsuits. Clearly, there are those that agree with Hersh and his supporters, though it is difficult when reading the testimonies, and full accounts of the entire affair to see any semblance of Torah value being exercised.
Mussar needs to be part of actual living, not an academic subject. The true mashgiach is not someone who can expound on mussar, but is rather the one that brings out the life in talmidim, assisting them each to rise beyond their emotional limits. Our large yeshivos make this close to obsolete, and this has a major role in the current fallout from the “system”.
Rav Dessler ZT”L was enigmatic. His connection to and inclusion of Chassidic teachings was puzzling to many. I read his statement about manufacturing gedolim. My impression was not an espousal of such an approach, but it was rather a statement of his observation. I have trouble accepting that he felt this was good for Klal Yisroel.
There is a story told of a meeting of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah from many years ago. In that discussion, Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L and other Roshei Yeshivos were discussing the future of yeshivos and Torah in America, and one of them stated, “Ober mir muzen machen gedolim.” Rav Eliezer Silver ZT”L replied, “Ihr vet machen gedolim, und mir vellen machen ketanim, und m’vet baide machen der zelbe Asher Yotzar.” Translation unneeded, nor would it do justice. Hamaiven yovin.
May I suggest that where ever you use the word Litvak or Litvishe you use the word yeshivish.
ReplyDeleteTo suggest that Lita was a large uniform Jewish community is absurd. there were Mussar people of all sorts, there were the old frume like the Chafetz chaim and the Chazon Ish ,Kovna had a modern orthodox population of white collar orthodox Jews there were litvishe Chasidim and yes not only the Alter Rebbe was a Litvak (Reb Zalman Litvak) but all 7 Lubavitcher rebbes were Litvishe -White Russian Jews by genetics and customs (dress,food their Yiddish). Other Litvishe Chassidim were Koidenov, Slonim , Stolin etc.Until 1939 almost all of the world's Chabad chasidim were litvishe Yidden. By the way Lithuania also had a strong Tifferes Bachurim movement for religious workers and crafts people and and even stronger Mizrachi whose leadership consisted of rabbonim . The President of the Mizrchi in Poland in the 1930's --yes none other than Reb Leib Poupko the son of the Chofetz chaim .
I know which yeshiva a bissel sechel is referring to.
ReplyDeleteAt one point they wanted to asser classical music with no lyrics in case the artist had "menuvoldik machshovos" while composing.
They once sent home waivers for the parents to sign allowing every boy to be tested with a lie detector to see if he caused "physical or spiritual damage" to the yeshiva, with the understanding that he may be suspended or expelled. There was such a huge outcry from the parents and financial supporters that they were forced to quietly drop the idea.
The menahel who was a pro-college Ner Yisroel talmid not liked by the more yeshivish rebbeyim, had an out of control temper and a bad habit of throwing young boys down stairwells.
They would also have a farher at the end of each year where you would be ashamed in front of the whole yeshiva and rabbonim from the community if you could not answer the kashya when called on. Most of the questioning was easy but it was hell for some individuals.
The only yeshiva in the world perhaps that is tougher than this place is Yishuv Hechodosh in Tel Aviv.
The only yeshiva in the world perhaps that is tougher than this place is Yishuv Hechodosh in Tel Aviv.
ReplyDeleteThis is where Yigal Amir went to.
I have a relative who went to that place and we heard some really horror stories about this place.
1. the litvish yeshivot were never big. telz was big -- 30 - 40 talmidim at most, and including some americans (and fewer brits and dutch). hungarian yeshivot had 300 - 400 or more.
ReplyDelete(when agudah was given some german reparations $ to dole out to yeshivot, rav weissmandel pointed this out, arguing nitra / mt kisco should get a fair share. of course, he was overrruled by lakewood, who got the $.)
2. hitting children -- shulchan aruch is very clear -- we do not hit children during the three weeks. the rest of the year is ok.
3. there's a story of a melamed who was hired during WW one in a safer part of europe. the townspeople heard that he wasnt using the stick, so they rushed to the cheder to straighten out the melamed. they were flabbergasted when they saw the children behaving beautifully, with the stick / club hidden away somewhere. later, the melamed came to america, and we know him as rav yaakov kaminetsky.
3. a kalah teacher once told me when she remarried in yerushalyim, instead of pulling rank and refusing the kallah classes there, she was given "fire and brimstone" books / pamphlets / lectures if she doesnt keep taharat hamishpacha, etc. flabbergasted, she had to tell the rabbonim and rebbetzins, etc that this is not the way to do things today, though they had a hard time accepting it.
"2. hitting children -- shulchan aruch is very clear -- we do not hit children during the three weeks. the rest of the year is ok."
ReplyDeleteDaniel would call that -- "The theologically nasty Shulchan Aruch"!
" MiMedinat HaYam said...
ReplyDelete1. the litvish yeshivot were never big. telz was big -- 30 - 40 talmidim at most, and including some americans (and fewer brits and dutch)."
Excuse me.
First of all, Litvishe yeshivos (of course they were not all one size) were larger than you are making them out to be. Mirrer Yeshiva had hundreds, so did Volozhin, etc.
Secondly, re comparing them to Hungarian Yeshivos, you have to take into consideration if they were the same kind of institutions, ages of talmidim, etc. Comparing yeshivos with a younger student body, like an American High School, with those of an older, university type body, is not a fair comparison.
"we do not hit children during the three weeks. the rest of the year is ok."
ReplyDeleteThis might be the reason why so many holocaust survivors have really, really bad memories about the "heder"....
Of the hundreds of frum holocaust survivors I've encountered, I dont believe there was even one who didnt love and rave about their cheder.
ReplyDeleteuiii said...
ReplyDelete"we do not hit children during the three weeks. the rest of the year is ok."
This might be the reason why so many holocaust survivors have really, really bad memories about the "heder"....
This hitting wasn't only at school but also at home. Do the people with bad memories about Heder have similar memories about Home?
Telz in Europe had between 200-300 students. Slobodka had even more . Mir was even larger. Radin , Kletzk, Baranowitz,Kaminetz, Grodna, Novorhadok (Bialistock ) had students in the hundreds.No need to guess there are many volumes on this subject and YIVO in NYC has part of the archives of the vaad hayeshivas with lists of students for many zemanim. other yeshivas were located in Brisk (not the kibbutz al yad harav), Kobrin, Ramieles in Vilna, Lida,Volozhin (a new incarnation after Ww1 a yeshiva ketana) a whole network of Beth Yosef yeshivas in Eastern Poland -the Kressy, Chassidic yeshivas : Lubavitch in Vilna, Stolin in Luninetz, Koidenov in Baranowitz and Slonim in Baranowitz.
ReplyDeleteMost of the Hungarian yeshivas were for bachurim between 12-18 . The Litvishe lomdim were first getting into things at age 19 when most of the Hungarian students were getting married.
I respect the Hungarian yeshivas and many were large and serious like Pressburg, Galanta, Nitra, Tasnad and Unsdorf.
As far as America goes and aid to yeshivas after the War before 1945 almost all American orthodox rabbonim were from Lita and they ran the show men like rabbis Silver, Rosenberg, Konwitz, henkin, Soloveitchik, Feinstein, kanterowitz, Sheinkopf, Seltzer were all Litvishe Jews. They called the shots and to them Nitra and Hungary were another planet. Which they were.
You guys didn't understand my comment.
ReplyDeleteYes, Torah once flourished in Lithuania. But the Jewish world collapsed there. Judaism collapsed there. Barely any yeshivas left and barely any bochurim to fill them. You need to reexamine the pre-war period and get your own facts straight. History is not the rosy picture of East European nostalgia you were taught in grade school. After world war one and the lead-up to world war two Judaism was dying in Europe.