Anonymous (a Hersh supporter) said...
who dhell cares who these people are and certainley who there step parents are or who there real parents are obviously it is a chillul hashem to their parents that they raised such animals who would do anything for there own kovod in return to destroy a choshove yid and his family. kudos to mr. hersh for standing up to his family and shame on all thos defendants who have such heilige zeides but don't live up to their names
================
Daas Torah replied
Daas Torah replied
Aside from simply bad mouthing the defendants - you haven't stated Mr. Hersh's position. The language of the lawsuit is a joke - I am suprised that it hasn't been laughed out of court already. Mr. Hersh's own parents and brother are against him as are his wife's parents. It is very hard to accept that Mrs. Cohen was able to orchestrate all these intelligent and accomplished individuals out of "jealously" for her sister. It is not clear why Mr. Hersh was not able to deal with his twins - despite the fact that others have said that they are wonderful people.
It is this tremendous gap between Mr. Hersh's claims and the reality that everyone else sees that is the problem.
How do you explain that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rabbi Dr. Twersky and Dr. Pelcovitz saw fit to rescue Isaac from the hell hole that his father had him incarcerated for 9 months. They were also "betwitched" by Mrs. Cohen?! How could he send a Jewish boy to a facility in Jamiaca where he was the only Jew - and obviously lacked a beis medrash.It didn't even have a toilet. This is obiviously something that any normal tzadik would do for his son - right?
Mr. Hersh can't simple let his few loyal followers repeat the mantra -"he is a tzadik and the others are wicked" and expect the supporters and donors of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin to say "Amen".
It is this tremendous gap between Mr. Hersh's claims and the reality that everyone else sees that is the problem.
How do you explain that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rabbi Dr. Twersky and Dr. Pelcovitz saw fit to rescue Isaac from the hell hole that his father had him incarcerated for 9 months. They were also "betwitched" by Mrs. Cohen?! How could he send a Jewish boy to a facility in Jamiaca where he was the only Jew - and obviously lacked a beis medrash.It didn't even have a toilet. This is obiviously something that any normal tzadik would do for his son - right?
Mr. Hersh can't simple let his few loyal followers repeat the mantra -"he is a tzadik and the others are wicked" and expect the supporters and donors of Yeshiva Chaim Berlin to say "Amen".
You need to explain to the parents of Chaim Berlin students why the yeshiva is claiming desperate financial difficulties and yet they have found unlimited funding for an unwinable lawsuit whose only purpose seems to be revenge against those who helped his sons.
dear daas torah,
ReplyDeletedo you perhaps know that mr. hersh's parents as well as mrs. hersh's parents are not religious at all they don't even keep shabbos or eat kosher let alone that they and isaac hersh did not mind that there was no kosher in tranquility bay or that there was no bais hamedrish because they as well as isaac hadn't stepped into one in many years as a matter of fact isaac as a matter of fact mr. hersh's father took him out on shabbos to eat at mcdonalds and we can see how mr. herh's father helped out with this situation by trying with all his might to keep all the children away from yiddishkeit. and dispised the whole idea that mr. hersh became frum and continues a torahdige house.
While it is true that the parents are not frum - but they are not anti religious. They in fact are interested that their grandchildren are frum. I also heard that Mr. Hersh's father in fact puts on tefillin.
ReplyDeleteTherefore your comment is lie and misrepresents the grandparents attitude towards religion and what they want for their grandchildren.
menachem asks
ReplyDeletemay i ask, at the moment is isaac frum or not.
thank you for showing your biased face, while you beleive rather what you heared rather than what i know and saw first hand. it comes to show you beleive what you want and what you don't want to beleive you don't wich comes to show you are a lost case. there for look how many people are commenting on your blog and you are outright boring, you keep on repeating the same old shtusim over and over again
ReplyDeleteAny one who hides his identity has zero crediblity - sorry that you find reality boring and prefer your lies and fantasies.
ReplyDeleteI hope you are not indicative of the way your friend handles reality.
don't forget to let people know that you are in bed with ZVI GLUCK witch answers all the questions of biasty, and guess what? since you answered ALL of my questions such as why you are taking so much of the COHEN/GLUCK/WOLBE side i am sighning off this stupid blog of yours,so now you won't have anybody leaving comments wich should give you a good opportunity to converse all your shtusem with yourself.
ReplyDeleteBeing abusive and a control freak while acting very frum - reminds me of someone. Perhaps you were referring to yourself as having no one to talk with. I would suggest you get professional help soon - before you hurt someone.
ReplyDeleteR'DE Kol Hakavod to you!
ReplyDeleteI always liked what Reb Hutner said and it rings so true in this situation.
ReplyDeleteReb Hutner asked about the Maharal(who he always quoted) whats the big deal about making the Golem I have Made Thousands of them וד"ק
Well I am still on the middle of the fence about this whole issue. I am mostly in the dark about what took place years ago, because well... I am often too busy learning to follow all the dailies, and I only read blogs for a bit of light entertainment, and then I try to stick to the Torah focused ones. Anyway,
ReplyDeletethey don't even keep shabbos or eat kosher let alone that they and isaac hersh did not mind that there was no kosher in tranquility bay
As someone who has learned Hilchot Shabbat to be able to pass the Israeli Rabbinut exams, I can confidently say that a great many people do not keep Shabbat, most are just ignorant to that fact.
As far as Kashrut, I had a very Chashuv Chareidi Kiruv Rav from a very Chashuv family feed me a taaravot basar b'chalav for a year and a half at his home becase neither he nor his wife(aso from a very chashuv family) could be bothered to read hecsherim. I also had a chashuv Rosh Yeshiva here in Israel try to feed me mamash neveila mostly on account of the fact that he was out of practice on his laws of Shabbat...
Considering that the young man's father was not bothered about the Kashrut or shomer shabbat situation in Tranquility bay, I think getting bent out of shape over, what is probably hearsay, about what the grandparents didn't do is a non-starter.
Add to that the anonymous nature of bloggers, and commentators on said blogs... I am going to say the same thing I said two years ago when the rumors about Tropper started. Video or it didn't happen. If you can't provide said video, get some Rav or other Chashuv person in the community to sign their name to a piece of paper stating that it went down like that... otherwise it is just a he said he said fiasco of hearsay.
You need to explain to the parents of Chaim Berlin students why the yeshiva is claiming desperate financial difficulties and yet they have found unlimited funding for an unwinable lawsuit whose only purpose seems to be revenge against those who helped his sons.
Proof please. Many lawyers, especially if they think there is a fair chance to win, will undertake such a case for a cut(usually large) of the winnings. Many have done that for far less money than we are talking about here. So please provide concrete evidence that Chaim Berlin Yeshiva has given anything other then a psak to one of its former talmidim that he might pursue this path.
If you cannot please retract this statement as it serves only to besmirch the name of what I have known to be a very reputable Torah institution.
Reb Hutner asked about the Maharal(who he always quoted) whats the big deal about making the Golem I have Made Thousands of them
This makes absolutely no sense to me.
I find anon's comments bizarre & disturbing.
ReplyDelete"Reb Hutner asked about the Maharal(who he always quoted) whats the big deal about making the Golem I have Made Thousands of them "
ReplyDeleteRav Hutner was a famous Rosh Yeshiva.
Sadly too many, even those with Semicha
are golems.
"
As far as Kashrut, I had a very Chashuv Chareidi Kiruv Rav from a very Chashuv family feed me a taaravot basar b'chalav for a year and a half at his home becase neither he nor his wife(aso from a very chashuv family) could be bothered to read hecsherim. "
Please explain EXACTLY what you perceive the chalavi ingredient to be.
Because if you had indeed properly learned Hilchot Shabbat or Kashrut, you would know what a huge aveiro it is to even think that a "chashuva" person would feed you anything that is not kosher or would violate Shabbat.
So, please o Mekubal who has been religious for only about ten years, do explain EXACTLY upon what basis you judge a Rosh Yeshiva when you state:
chashuv Rosh Yeshiva here in Israel try to feed me mamash neveila mostly on account of the fact that he was out of practice on his laws of Shabbat"
And even if the attorney for Chaim Berlin took the Hersh case on pure contingency, it is a donation. And that professional time could be better donated to help the Yeshiva in some way
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePlease explain EXACTLY what you perceive the chalavi ingredient to be.
ReplyDeleteChalav Margarine in which they fried beef and chicken.
So, please o Mekubal who has been religious for only about ten years, do explain EXACTLY upon what basis you judge a Rosh Yeshiva when you state:
Actually I have had semicha that long.
Aside from getting into the details because it would embarass the person, Rav Ovadia Yosef, and Rav Avigdor Nebentzal both ruled that those who partook of the meal were over for Shabbat, and that because some aspect of the prepartion took place on Shabbat/Yom Kippur, the food was neveila. I rely on those two poskim to know what they are talking about, especially when they are both close to the Rosh Yeshiva involved in some way.
And even if the attorney for Chaim Berlin took the Hersh case on pure contingency, it is a donation. And that professional time could be better donated to help the Yeshiva in some way
1) Please provide proof that this non-Jewish lawyer is the attorney for Chaim Berlin.
2) Why would a non-Jewish lawyer want to donate his time to Chaim Berlin?
3) A typical way such suits are handled, at least by the attornies I know who work in that field is that the speculate on potential gains vs. hours lost factoring in potential for a courtroom victory. Typically attornies take working in such a manner take between 20-50%. In this case you are talking of an attorney making a potential 80million(conservatively) vs losing his time, after all if he loses its his client that faces any negative consequences. So I think your logic is a little off.
1. only really lousy attorneys
ReplyDeletetake contingency work. Decent
attorneys bill by the hour.
And even if the attorney takes the case on contingency you have to pay costs which are generally in the thousands, ie. tuition for a nice Jewish kid.
"Anonymous said...dear daas torah, do you perhaps know that...mrs. hersh's parents are not religious at all they don't even keep shabbos or eat kosher"
ReplyDeleteThat's a 100% lie. Mrs. Hersh's parents are respectable Orthodox Jews who raised a fine Orthodox family. They belong to an Orthodox shull and sent all their kids to Orthodox and Haredi yeshivas and bais yaakovs. Their daughters all married Orthodox Jews. So Mrs. Hersh was born religious and raised religious by very religious parents. Check it out before you make false allegations. On the other hand there have been many reports that Mr. Hersh's parents are not religious and that he had a very troubled relationship with them growing up and when he became religious himself. These are just simple facts, please do not distort them. Thank you.
Are you serious? Not one of the defendants, has as much as their own house, so there is no way that these lawyers took this case without getting paid by the hour.
ReplyDeleteAs far as CB and RAS, there is no proof that they are paying for this, but there are people in bklyn that have gotten phone calls from RAS stating that he needed to help them with money for the hersh case,"so that reb michoel - a tzadik gomer - (his words) can get his reputation back".
This WILL be proven with testimony in the case, and it is getting exciting to watch.
Mr.Hersh, if you would use all the money you are spending on this law suit, regardless of who is paying, maybe you could move on with your life.
By the way, it's not clear what Mekubal is up to with his side-arguments about his own life.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a "show and tell" story where people reveal how they did not live up to all the chumras or basic mitzvas at or other times in their lives. Everyone experiences two "steps forward and and one step back" all through their lives in religion and in life.
But this is about a very real serious PUBLIC legal case that broke out about two and half years ago in America when it was discovered that Mr. Hersh had sent his son Isaac off to a controversial facility for troubled teens at Tranquility Bay, on the island of Jamaica. Family members of Mrs. Hersh aided by rabbis, communal workers and organizations started a frantic effort to get Isaac out of there with the help of Mr. Jonathan Ambush suing Mr. Hersh and the US Sate Department to save Isaac. This is verified in court papers. Mr. Hersh resisted and had the backing of his rabbi HaRav Aron Schechter, rosh yeshiva of Yeshivas Chaim Berlin in Brooklyn. All this is known and verified by news reports. No videos are needed.
After a fierce struggle and in facing criticism from all sides, Mr. Hersh relented and signed papers to release his son who still had to be rescued. It also cost Mr. Hersh his newly-minted job at Hatzalah, see the current court papers. This also caused a huge split in the Agudas Yisroel of America with HaRav Shmuel Kaminetsky of the Philadelphai Yeshiva pitted against HaRav Aron Schechter, this is known and was reported in papers especially when Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky signed a full-page ad in The Jewish Press in 2008 thanking the rescuers of Isaac Hersh and warning to all Jewish parents not to send their children to Tranquility Bay under any circumstances.
For the last two years, under the radar, there have been legal battles over custody of Isaac Hersh that Mr. Hersh. Starting in 2010 Mr. Hersh has decided to sue for a total of $441 Million almost anyone who stood in his way. Still that remained under the radar. In his efforts to build his case against a whole group of defendants in June 2010 Mr. Hersh's lawyers sent subpoenas to Google and Yahoo to find out the names of who anonymous bloggers and their Emails were opposing Mr. Hersh. This made the case go public as many dormant bloggers who had nothing to do with the defendants or their families took notice of this attack agianst their rights. It was that last act that got a group of bloggers to approach the EFF to defend them in the face of Mr. Hersh's lawyers tactics. The EFF accepted the case gladly and did its research, it has filed to quash the subpoenas and released a press release that has now been picked up and reported by thousands of other blogs and free speech organizations who are rightly concerned that this is a serious threat to responsible freedom of speech, and naturally this has touched a raw nerve in freedom loving America so that the case has now gone beyond being public and has gone "viral" meaning it is spreading like wild-fire on the Internet. This was caused by Mr. Herh's lawyers because the bloggers who had commented on the rescue of Isaac had long left and forgotten the entire episode. The story is still unfolding...
Now why can't Mekubal stick with the facts and the story at hand and please try NOT to create that old Tropper/Roni gimmick of "red herring" arguments that just distract from the main subject? Thank you.
"Rav Ovadia Yosef.....ruled because some aspect of the prepartion took place on Shabbat/Yom Kippur, the food was neveila..."
ReplyDeleteYou say a lot of things in the name of Gedolim....
The Mishna Brura (318, 5) rules that even if cooking was done for you on Shabbat by a Jew, you may benefit from it directly after Shabbat.
This is because there is no fear that we will ask a Jew to break Shabbat for us in the future, whereas there is a real fear that we will ask a non-Jew to cook for us on Shabbat, which itself is forbidden.
Some opinions state that, in the case of a non-religious Jew,one should wait until the time it would take to prepare the food on Motzei Shabbat (Pri-Megadim); however, Rav S.Z. Auerbach limited this solely to the case of a Jew who has denied his Judaism altogether.
This is surely not the case with your Rosh Yeshiva.
Hacham Ovadia Yosef addresses the question at length in his work Yehaveh Da'at 6:21 in which the Rav states that if the food is permitted by any other Rabbinical ruling/tradition, then it is also permitted for one who is a guest in the house.
My husband has also personally heard Rabbi Yosef say this on numerous occasions.
I find it very difficult to believe that a Rosh Yeshiva fed you neveila and that Rabbi Yosef who has ruled (in writing and in person) that one may partake of the (kosher ingredients) food that a Jew has cooked on Shabbat, ruled this way.
As far as the margarine which you state was "chalav", Sephardim rule differently from Ashk. regarding the status of a parve food cooked in a chalav or basar vessel.
I have known of many Sephardic Rabbis to permit the use OU-D labeled margarine, dessert topping, creamer, sorbet etc etc etc that contains no dairy ingredients with meat.
Unless you have seen the label and know for SURE that the "dairy" ingredients are definitely sourced from dairy (ie Lactic acid is usually from corn, so that OU-D margarine with the lactic acid in it that you assumed was dairy just may have been researched and known to be parve. Also there are Poskim who rule that whey is not dairy because it is inedible by itself.
This is not the tradition in our house, but when one is a guest, one accepts the minhagim/Psak of the host's Rav etc).
It is a very big deal to decide that a member of an observant community is not kosher or Shomer Shabbat usually reserved for a minyan that has witnessed a d'oraita prohibition, warned twice etc.
We are required to always give the benefit of the doubt.
Because if you had indeed properly learned Hilchot Shabbat or Kashrut, you would know what a huge aveiro it is to even think that a "chashuva" person would feed you anything that is not kosher or would violate Shabbat.
ReplyDeleteIt is not thinking that he "might" have, there is no doubt that he did. He told me that he did. He apologized and asked me to help him kasher his kitchen.
I had a very Chashuv Chareidi Kiruv Rav from a very Chashuv family feed me a taaravot basar b'chalav for a year and a half
ReplyDeleteI had some idiot BT in my house for Shabbos who looked at our Vita herring bottle and declared that this is not kosher because the wine souce makes it yayin nesech. When was quesioned about the OU hashgocho on the bottle, he said "they do not know what they are doing"
I know other people who had a newly minted BT in their house who declared them as ochlei nevelos
Chalav margarine - Sephardim hold that
ReplyDeletea parve food cooked in a basar/chalav
vessel is still parve.
So, it is quite possible that a margarine market OU-D for example might
not contain any dairy ingredients and may still be pareve according to Sephardic opinions.
Also there are poskim who consider
whey to be pareve since it is not eaten by itself and does not impart a flavor (ie London Beit Din). Whey or lactic acid can also be from vegetable sources (ie. corn).
Did you ever ask your generous host of 1 1/2 years about the margarine, perhaps you might have been surprised at the answer.
"Rav Ovadia Yosef, and Rav Avigdor Nebentzal both ruled that those who partook of the meal were over for Shabbat, and that because some aspect of the prepartion took place on Shabbat/Yom Kippur, the food was neveila. "
ReplyDeleteHacham Ovadia Yosef addresses this question at length in his work Yehaveh Da'at (6:21) and Rabbi Eli Mansour explains this on 5/13/10:
"Halacha forbids deriving benefit from a Melacha performed on Shabbat. Thus, if a person cooked food on Shabbat in violation of Halacha, it may not be eaten.
This prohibition was enacted by the Sages. As far as Torah law is concerned, food that was cooked on Shabbat is permissible for consumption; it was the Sages who enacted this provision prohibiting eating food that was prepared in violation of Shabbat.
The Rabbinic origin of this prohibition yields important ramifications.
Hacham Ovadia Yosef ruled that if food was prepared on Shabbat in violation of Halacha, but there are authorities who permitted food preparation in that fashion, then the food is permissible for consumption. "
In other words, if the act was done, the food may be eaten. Since the prohibition against eating food cooked on Shabbat constitutes a Rabbinic, rather than Biblical, prohibition, it does not apply in situations of Safek (you cannot say that the Rosh Yeshiva lit a fire on Yom Kippur to cook food!).
As such, if there is some question among the Halachic authorities as to whether the food was in fact prepared in violation of Shabbat, the food may be eaten.
Rabbi David Sperling further explains Rabbi Yosef's opinion in his Practical Halacha :
ReplyDeleteBenefiting from a Melachah preformed by a Jew on Shabbat
"The Gemara records a three way argument about eating food that was cooked on Shabbat (Hullin 15a, Gittin 53b, Ketubot 34a, and BabaKama 71a). The permissibility of the food depends on three factors: - whether the cooking was done as an intentional sin (mayzid), or unintentionally (shogeg); whether we are permitting the food for the sinner himself, or for other people; and whether the food is to be eaten on the Shabbat itself, or after the Shabbat.
R. Meir holds that if the Shabbat desecration was unintentional, then the resultant product may be used by all even on Shabbat, but if the sin was intentional, then everyone must wait until after the Shabbat in order to use it.
R. Yehudah holds a stricter opinion, and says if the sin was unintentional, everybody can use it, but only after Shabbat, but if the sin was intentional, then the sinner himself can never benefit from it, and other people can use it after Shabbat.
R. Yochanan holds the strictest opinion, and says if the sin was unintentional, the sinner can never benefit from it, but others can use it after Shabbat.
(either way you are covered for Motzai Shabbat/Yom Kippur).
It is unfathomable that a Rosh Yeshiva would intentionally cook food on Shabbat.
Whilst most of the Rishonim (including the Rif, Rambam, and Rosh) rule like R. Yehudah (the intermediate ruling above), the Tosafot rule like R. Meir (the lenient view).
The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 319,1) writes that the halachah is in line with the ruling of R. Yehudah.
On the other hand, the Gr"a, (Vilna Gaon), argues with the Shulchan Aruch and writes that the halachah is like R. Meir.
The Mishna Brurah (319, 7) writes that while the normative halachah is in line with the Shulchan Aruch, and hence R. Yehudah, in time of need we can rely on the Gr"a and follow the lenient ruling of R. Meir.
Rav Ovadiah Yosef, Yalkut Yosef, 319 footnote 6 rules that one does not deviate from the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch, even in times of need. Even applying the strict ruling of R. Yehudah, if the sin was unintentional, everybody can use it, but only after Shabbat, but if the sin was intentional, then the sinner himself can never benefit from it, and other people can use it after Shabbat.
I assume that you were not eating on Yom Kippur, so this occurred Motzai Shabbat/Yom Kippur so even according to the strictest opinion, food intentionally cooked on Shabbat by a Jew would be permitted for you according to Rabbi Yosef's published opinion.
Furthermore, Rav Yosef ruled that if food was prepared on Shabbat in violation of Halacha, but there are authorities who permitted food preparation in that fashion, then the food is permissible for consumption. So according to Rav Yosef you would even be permitted to rely upon the more lenient opinion as a guest in the house.
In this case, where the Mishna Brurah rules in times of need like the Gr"a, it seems to me that even a Sephardi can rely on this ruling.
The Halachah - Summary.
To summarize then, we have established that when someone unintentionally breaks the Shabbat, everybody can benefit from the sin only after Shabbat, however if the sin was intentional then the sinner himself can never benefit from the sin. However, in a time of need, one may rely on the lenient opinion which rules that everybody may benefit from an unintentional transgression on the Shabbat itself, and in the case of an intentional sin, everybody can benefit immediately after Shabbat."
Rabbi David Sperling explains in his Practical Halacha :
ReplyDeleteBenefiting from a Melachah preformed by a Jew on Shabbat
"The Gemara records a three way argument about eating food that was cooked on Shabbat (Hullin 15a, Gittin 53b, Ketubot 34a, and BabaKama 71a). The permissibility of the food depends on three factors: - whether the cooking was done as an intentional sin (mayzid), or unintentionally (shogeg); whether we are permitting the food for the sinner himself, or for other people; and whether the food is to be eaten on the Shabbat itself, or after the Shabbat.
R. Meir holds that if the Shabbat desecration was unintentional, then the resultant product may be used by all even on Shabbat, but if the sin was intentional, then everyone must wait until after the Shabbat in order to use it.
R. Yehudah holds a stricter opinion, and says if the sin was unintentional, everybody can use it, but only after Shabbat, but if the sin was intentional, then the sinner himself can never benefit from it, and other people can use it after Shabbat.
R. Yochanan holds the strictest opinion, and says if the sin was unintentional, the sinner can never benefit from it, but others can use it after Shabbat.
(either way you are covered for Motzai Shabbat/Yom Kippur).
It is unfathomable that a Rosh Yeshiva would intentionally cook food on Shabbat.
Whilst most of the Rishonim (including the Rif, Rambam, and Rosh) rule like R. Yehudah (the intermediate ruling above), the Tosafot rule like R. Meir (the lenient view).
The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 319,1) writes that the halachah is in line with the ruling of R. Yehudah.
On the other hand, the Gr"a, (Vilna Gaon), argues with the Shulchan Aruch and writes that the halachah is like R. Meir.
The Mishna Brurah (319, 7) writes that while the normative halachah is in line with the Shulchan Aruch, and hence R. Yehudah, in time of need we can rely on the Gr"a and follow the lenient ruling of R. Meir.
Rav Ovadiah Yosef, Yalkut Yosef, 319 footnote 6 rules that one does not deviate from the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch, even in times of need. Even applying the strict ruling of R. Yehudah, if the sin was unintentional, everybody can use it, but only after Shabbat, but if the sin was intentional, then the sinner himself can never benefit from it, and other people can use it after Shabbat.
ReplyDeleteI assume that you were not eating on Yom Kippur, so this occurred Motzai Shabbat/Yom Kippur so even according to the strictest opinion, food intentionally cooked on Shabbat by a Jew would be permitted for you according to Rabbi Yosef's published opinion.
Furthermore, Rav Yosef ruled that if food was prepared on Shabbat in violation of Halacha, but there are authorities who permitted food preparation in that fashion, then the food is permissible for consumption. So according to Rav Yosef you would even be permitted to rely upon the more lenient opinion as a guest in the house.
In this case, where the Mishna Brurah rules in times of need like the Gr"a, it seems to me that even a Sephardi can rely on this ruling.
The Halachah - Summary.
To summarize then, we have established that when someone unintentionally breaks the Shabbat, everybody can benefit from the sin only after Shabbat, however if the sin was intentional then the sinner himself can never benefit from the sin. However, in a time of need, one may rely on the lenient opinion which rules that everybody may benefit from an unintentional transgression on the Shabbat itself, and in the case of an intentional sin, everybody can benefit immediately after Shabbat."
Sura
ReplyDeleteYou are assuming a lot in both cases. I never stated the action committed was actually cooking. Instead I have intentionally concealed the actual melacha that was violated in order to bring the food to the table.
The same with the Rav who served the food cooked with the dairy margarine. He discovered his error when he began working as a Rav HaMachshir for the hescher on the margarine.
Quite honestly if you don't believe me, I don't care. I could give you the names of both Rabbanim involved, and you could contact them, they would verify the story. However, I wish to save them the embarrassment, as I deeply respect both individuals.
Ultimately what this boils down to is quite clear. I am a B"T. It doesn't matter to you that I am Mesumakh from the Rabbinate and a handful of other Chashuv Rabbanim. What matters is that I am a B"T. So feel free to disregard. As far as I am concerned this conversation is over.
P.S. Both Rabbanim are Ashkenazi.
ReplyDeleteAlso see M"B Siman 307 S"K 45.
Mekubal, the example of cooking on Shabbat is given because it is the D'oraita prohibition.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of other melachos, it is the same or easier to permit.
You don't have to publish any names we know who we are. What I don't remember is the brand of the margarine or what the ingredients were. Maybe you remember?
And if the Shabbat melacho was not cooking, then please just tell us what it was because we really do not know what you are remembering.
And yes, we have hosted many many newly minted BT's like yourself who have told us that we are not kosher, not Shomer Shabbat, not dressing modestly, speaking Lashon Hora etc.
It becomes even more frustrating when the host discovers that the "newly minted" BT and/or his wife are not even Jewish k'halacha after we went through all of the heartburn that ruined our Shabbats bending over backwards to host them.
To add insult to injury, these same guests that we have exhausted ourselves serving then go and tell the whole town that you are not at all "frum".
What else is there to do but to apologize? I am sorry, truly sorry that we hosted you for 1 1/2 years and put our family out to the extent that we did.
From the OU's website:
ReplyDelete"In most OU-D margarines, where actual dairy is in the margarine, the amount of whey or milk solids is about 1.6% by weight. This translates into slightly more than 2% by volume, which means that the dairy is not batul.
Thus, if the margarine was used as a liner on a meat pan, the pan liner would likely be rendered non-kosher. The status of the meat would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
If the margarine was used as an ingredient in, for example, mashed potatoes or in a chicken or meat broth, the case could be made that the food is kosher since all the ingredients together nullify the amount of dairy in the original margarine."
So there are two circumstances here:
1. most OU-D margarine does not even contain actual dairy ingredients, but is manufactured on dairy equipment or in a plant that makes butter or other dairy products and is therefore according to the OU, which follows Ashk. rulings, dairy.
2.Even if the margarine does in fact contain actual dairy ingredients such as whey (which some Poskim hold as non dairy because it is not edible/does not impart a flavor on its own) or milk solids, if the margarine, even with its dairy ingredient was as you described added to a pan of cooking chicken, it is still most likely that you were not fed cholov v'basar.
In fact, it is nearly impossible.
I am not, chas v'shalom recommending using margarine labeled dairy to cook meat dishes, I am however advocating judging one's fellow favorably.
To walk around thinking that a chasuva host served you a D'oraita forbidden mixture for 1 1/2 years is very serious and in this case also nearly impossible.
You don't have to publish any names we know who we are. What I don't remember is the brand of the margarine or what the ingredients were. Maybe you remember?
ReplyDeleteROFL
Talk about a fishing expedition, as well as poor reading skills.
If you had actually read the thread, you would know that they were separate instances half the world apart.
If you were who you were claiming to be...
Well that's a different story, considering I am still very good friends with that person, and as much as possible in this world, his wife. But then you know that right...
As far as the ingredient/margarine involved... you forgot?!?!?! How many times at Shabbatons and such did your husband(or rather the husband of the person you are pretending to imitate) retell the story of his own misfortune, as a chizuk to all to check each and every hescher no matter how times one has used x-product?
@Rav Eidensohn...
Its been fun. Hope to see you next time you are Ba'Aretz.
There is a chassidishe chumrah where OU wine would be considered yayin nesech for them.
ReplyDeleteBut it is true that many wacky baalei teshuva go overboard as a result of their own am haaratzus.
One guy was demanding that the hosts provide him with 12 challos to make kiddush on as if he is the Besh"t or something and it is verboten to speak during his long drawn out kiddush mit off key chazzonus.
On the other hand, there are FFBs I do not eat by becuase they are very lax in kashrus. One guy who learned in Ponvizh for instance serves drinks that are known to have treif ingredients. When you bring it up, he just ignores you and changes the subject.
Reb Hutner asked about the Maharal(who he always quoted) whats the big deal about making the Golem I have Made Thousands of them
ReplyDeleteThis makes absolutely no sense to me.
It is a Yiddish-ism a golem is a non thinking person who does as he is told without thinking like the famous story of the Mahral wife told the golem to get water and he kept bringing and flooding the house because she never told him to stop
My final word can be found here as I don't wish to take up space on someone else's blog with another person's self righteous crusade
ReplyDeleteDear Sura G,
ReplyDeletethank you very much for your well-researched clarification on halacha matters.
It happened a few times already on this blog that a blogger calling himself "mekubal" and pretending to have a "smicha" misrepresented halacha, which could have induced me into errors.
Therefore, I am grateful that there are knowledgeable bloggers who are able to refute his erronous opinions with the adequate sources.
Thank you
"a golem is a non thinking person who does as he is told without thinking"
ReplyDeleteThis would sadly describe too many of us today.
Kashrus-
"One guy who learned in Ponvizh for instance serves drinks that are known to have treif ingredients."
Which ingredients in drinks do you consider treif??
Is it the carmine which is a common colorant in drinks?
First of all, you should be aware that ALL fruit juices contain a significant amount of pulverized bugs in them from the fruit itself and that this is never considered a kashrut problem since the prohibition is on eating whole bugs.
Many prominent Poskim (ie R' Ovadia Yosef,Yabia Omer 8:11) declare carmine kosher. Rav Yosef also explains that Gelatin is kosher in this Teshuva.
Rabbi Sheinkopf who was ordained at Mesivta Rabbi Chaim Berlin and holds a Ph.D. in Talmudic studies from Yeshiva University also permits both gelatin and carmine and certifies both as kosher ingredients.
And this is the policy of the Australian Rabbinate regarding carmine:
A "Kosher Certificate" may be provided for Carmine that is more that one year old. This count begins with the death of the insects. [Meaning that although the insects may have only been converted into the finished product a short time ago, it may be certified as Kosher provided the insects have been dead for one year.]
This is the opinion of the Shoel U’MeiShiv quoted by the Darkey Teshuvah Y”D 102:30. This ruling satisfies the ShaArey TzeDek and is also the understanding of the MinChas Yitzchok 3:96.
A “Kosher Certificate” may be provided for foods that utilise non “Kosher Certified” Carmine as an ingredient, even if it can not be verified that the Carmine is at least 12 months old.
This is the opinion of the Shoel U’MeiShiv and the Pischey TeShuvah Y”D 87:20 who quotes the Tiferes Tzvi. However the ShaArey Tzedek, quoted by the Darkey Teshuvah 87:133, disagrees.
end BeMarEh HaBazak"
A part of Ahavat Yisrael is recognizing that there are many different legitimate opinions on kashrut, Shemirat Shabbat and Family laws other than those of our own Rav's.
When we see something that someone is doing that we do not think is okay, perhaps it might be better to do a little research to find out if there are ANY recognized Poskim who do permit the thing before jumping to the conclusion that it is outright forbidden.
If there are recognized Orthodox opinions that permit the thing, then it is wrong to criticize the person who relies upon those opinions because "he has upon whom to rely".
Kashrus-
ReplyDeleteIf your concern with drinks is carmine, you should know that there are prominent Poskim who permit it.
R' Ovadia Yosef wrote a halachic
responsum (Yabia Omer 8:11) declaring it kosher. Carmine undergoes various chemical processes that make it inedible; there are similar arguments in the
writings of earlier authorities about cochineal and
shellac, both of which are derived from insect secretions.
Sura G., I am surprised at you.
ReplyDeleteYour information is either purposely misleading or very, very out of date.
David Sheinkopf has been practicing as a Conservative rabbi despite where he got his semicha from. And his reliance on R' Chaim Ozer's heter for gelatin is bogus since the comtemporary process includes other things besides what could be considered "dry bones".
There is no respectable kashrus agency, in the US at least, that allows either carmine and no one anywhere allows Sheinkopf style gelatin.
Part of the problem with this lapsed Ponvizher is carmine and part are other treif flavorings which are nosein taam. He also does not bother to provide any justification and refuses to discuss it whatsoever.
sura g ....all fruit juice is bug juice ??? did you ever hear of badatz adeh haharadit?
ReplyDeletemakubal...did u ever hear of humility ???
makubal...did u ever hear of humility ???
ReplyDeleteI have heard of Anavah... Humility as defined by the Webster Dictionary I have been told by three separate Roshei Yeshivot(names upon request) "is for chumps who want to get kicked around and has no place in a Ben Torah."
if we already mentioned the aidah h. ,and ROYosef
ReplyDelete1) in 1976 (approx) it was discovered all the carmel wines had hametz lemon salt before pesach...only r yosef was matir it...
2) r yosef OKed the oslo accords which included giving guns to arabs...
3) only the aidah checks tuna that nothing else gets in the cans...
4) aidah wines are all wine according to the beit yosef, not like they are accused of...
Rehov Slonim 11... if you want to talk about the lenient Psak Halakha from Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, you should pick some of the better ones:
ReplyDelete1) Certain Earthenware utensils may be kashered for Pesah(Yalkut Yosef 451:40)
2) One need not line their sink or counters, even if made from earthenware, for Pesah(Yalkut Yosef 451:42,43)
3) Plastic utensils can be kashered for Pesah(Yalkut Yosef 451:45)
4) If one typically uses placemats or a table cloth for the dining table, nothing needs to be done to it, it is kosher for Pesah(Yalkut Yosef 451:50)
Essentially in many ways Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is known for being a fairly lenient Posek, especially in his Teshuvot(from whence the Yalkut Yosef or the above mentioned Yabia Omer are derived). If one were to read his more recent works, which were strictly Halakha L'Chatchila(Halicot Olam, Chazon Ovadia, Halakha Berura) even amongst his older works, his "completion" of the sefer Kaf HaHaim shows a very different trend then what is seen in his Teshuvot.
The reasoning for this is fairly simple most Sephardim hold by either the Ben Ish Hai or the Kaf HaHaim for halakha l'chatchila, they typically aren't asking Rav Ovadia a question, unless there is a problem, and well he is known for being lenient in those circumstances. His introduction of Hazon Ovadia states very clearly that that was why he felt the need to begin that work... that too many people were being overly lenient by relying l'chatchila on what his Teshuvot to specific Sheilot were, whereas the situation at hand may not meet the same criteria the Rav saw in that specific shaila.
mekubal...giving guns to arabs in ramalla is not a leniancy ,rather a serious mistake...
ReplyDeletethis was the opinion of ALL godaly yisroal...r shach regretted he made shas ... r meir could purify a sheretz with 150 reasons...
ReplyDeletethis was the opinion of ALL godaly yisroal...r shach regretted he made shas ... r meir could purify a sheretz with 150 reasons...
ReplyDeletegiving guns to arabs in ramalla is not a leniancy ,rather a serious mistake...
ReplyDeletePlease indicate where Rav Ovadia ever gave a psak to give guns to Arabs. I am familiar with his psak that if the peace plan would save Jewish lives, than as a matter of pikuah nefesh it should be followed. The Oslo accords were a three step process. The Arabs were only supposed to get their own police force if they followed through on the first two steps(which they didn't). You really cannot blame the posek when the people don't follow his psak.
What you are doing can be likened tot a person going to get a psak about a non-kosher pot from a Rav. The Rav tells him, first you have to clean it very well, then you have to dip it in boiling water, and only then can you use it. So the person takes the pot home and uses it, without doing the rest, and you would say it is all the fault of the Rav.
r shach regretted he made shas ...R' Shach didn't make Shas, Rav Ovadiah Yosef did that. R' Shach gave shas its greatest boost with some ill concieved statements about sephardim that sounded to most sephardi ears as though they could expect nothing more than what was then status quo discrimination from the other religious parties. It was by driving cars repeatedly blaring R' Shach's recorded statements that Shas was able to garner some many Sephardi supporters and voters. If R' Shach regretted that, he had only to apologize.
...1) when R.O.Y. approved the oslo agreements, that included giving guns to arabs,which later were turned on jews...
ReplyDelete2) part of his hetter was maybe the law is like the satmar rebbi ,that we can not have a medina beclall...
3) R.O.Y. Spokesman (sudri) later blamed deri...
4) shas was founded by r nissim zev... R,O.Y. JOINED 2 years later...
1) when R.O.Y. approved the oslo agreements, that included giving guns to arabs,which later were turned on jews
ReplyDeleteHe most certainly did not. He instructed his party to abstain from the vote on Oslo 1, and to vote against every agreement after.