UPDATE June 23: Just added the name of the attorney seeking the information. It is not clear what side he is on. The names of the opposing attorneys was found on the internet and I have included that at the end of this post.
===========================
June 22 Just received the following letter from Google today - along with a pdf of the subpoena which mentions my blog. Anybody know the significance of this? [not the lawsuit but the significance for me] As far as I can tell there was in fact only one comment on my blog regarding these individuals and that was basically citations of items that appeared in the newspaper. They obviously are not sending this to find out my identity since it is mentioned on the front page of my blog. Thus it seems to be a fishing expedition for the identity of anyone who has ever commented on my blog.
===========================
June 22 Just received the following letter from Google today - along with a pdf of the subpoena which mentions my blog. Anybody know the significance of this? [not the lawsuit but the significance for me] As far as I can tell there was in fact only one comment on my blog regarding these individuals and that was basically citations of items that appeared in the newspaper. They obviously are not sending this to find out my identity since it is mentioned on the front page of my blog. Thus it seems to be a fishing expedition for the identity of anyone who has ever commented on my blog.
==========================================
Bradley F. SilvermanHello,
Google has received a civil subpoena for information related to your Google account in a case entitled MiriamHersh and Michael Hersh v. Elizabeth Rebecca Cohen, Raphael Cohen,Aryeh Larry Wolbe, Eli Wolbe, et al., Supreme Court of the State of New York,County of Kings, Case number 006170-2009.
To comply with thelaw, unless you provide us with a copy of a filed motion to quash the subpoena (or other formal objection filed in court) via email at legal-support@google.com no later than 5pm Pacific Time on July 11, 2010, Google may provide responsive documents on this date.
For more information about the subpoena,you may wish to contact the party seeking this information at:
Danzig Fishman & Decea
One North Broadway, 12th Floor
White Plains, NY 10601
(914)285-1400 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (914)285-1400 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
======================================
| Attorney/Firm For Plaintiff: | |||
| MEISTER SEELIG & FEIN | Attorney Type: Attorney Of Record | Atty. Status: Active | |
| 140 EAST 45TH STREET, 19TH FL NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10017 | |||
| 212-655-3500 | |||
| Attorney/Firm For Defendant: | |||
| SOLOMON N. KLEIN | Attorney Type: Attorney Of Record | Atty. Status: Active | |
| 1410 BROADWAY, STE 1802 NEW YORK, NY 10018 | |||
| 212-575-0202 | |||
| STUART KAGEN, ESQ. | Attorney Type: Attorney Of Record | Atty. Status: Active | |
| 4 DIANA'S TRAIL STATEN ISLAND, NY 10304 | |||
| 646-270-8532 | |||
First, they likely asked for a subpoena to go through any blog that mentioned them. Any hit at all would be sufficient. However, since none of the blog is private, I don't see how it gives them access to anything they didn't already have. Sounds like a computer generated list of sites.
ReplyDeleteSecond, given my trust in Dr Pelkovitz and R' Aryeh Wolbe of TORCH in Houston, if parents who aren't happy with his meddling are worried about what you said, I would take that as a complement.
All in all, it's weird, but no cause for alarm.
-micha
First, contact a lawyer.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I'm suspicious just because of one word: "quash". It's not a real word used in legal transactions but slang which makes me wonder about the legitimacy of the whole letter.
But I still would contact a lawyer.
quash the subpoena is a legal term to overturn a subpoena for information.
ReplyDeleteWhich comment on the blog was regarding this case?
If you type the word "hersh" in the search feature there is one comment that pops up
ReplyDeleteMichael Hersh had the backing of R' Aron Schechter in that horrendous episode until R' Zelig Epstein cane down hard on them as well as their being threatened by a medical professional.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like Hersh is pulling a Mordechai Tendler and going after every critical blog.
The bloggers in that case got pro bono legal representation from 2 free speech orgs. Not only did Tendler lose the case, but he was ordered to pay legal costs under the SLAPP Act for his frivolous fishing expedition.
Michael Hersh has since been removed as president of Flatbush Hatzolah.
Public Citizen is one organization that has offered free legal services to frum bloggers.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.citizen.org/litigation/article_redirect.cfm?ID=14267
Scroll down this page for everything they did in the Tendler case and a case in the 5 Towns where an anti-frum politician sued a frum woman blogress.
Mordechai Tendler v. Doe
A New York rabbi who was expelled from the rabbinical association and fired by his congregation sought prelitigation discovery in Ohio to identify bloggers who commented on the controversy. When Google refused to obey an Ohio subpoena, he obtained subpoenas in California. The bloggers moved to quash and filed a special motion to strike under the California anti-SLAPP law. Although the rabbi dropped the subpoenas, the bloggers obtained an award of attorney fees under the SLAPP law, and the rabbi has now appealed.
Appellate Brief for Respondents(07/31/2007)
Order on Special Motion to Strike(10/12/2006)
Defendants' Memo in Support of Motion to Quasha(07/06/2006)
Defendants' Memo in Support of Special Motion to Strike(07/06/2006)
Greenbaum v. Google
On the eve of her campaign for re-election, a member of the school board in Lawrence, New York, filed a petition for prelitigation discovery to identify "Orthomom" and people who used the Orthomom blog to post criticisms of the board member's position in opposition to public funding for the extracurricular activities of children attending private religious schools. Some commenters had called the member a "bigot" for opposing the funding. Public Citizen represents Orthomom in arguing that a blogger cannot be held liable for comments posted on her blog by others, and that in any event the comments are not defamatory and compelled identification would violate her First Amendment right, and the right of her web site's users, to speak anonymously.
Press Release (10/25/2007)
Court Decision (10/23/2007)
Reply Memorandum in Opposition to Discovery and for Leave to Intervene (4/17/2007)
Press Release (3/14/2007)
Memorandum in Opposition to Greenbaum's Application for Pre-Commencement Disclosure (3/13/2007)
Rabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeletePlease do yourself a favor and consult a lawyer to find out what your responsibilities/rights are, validity of the letter, etc. Please don't merely rely on the readers of this blog. You're much better safe than sorry.
I got one too, as did, I beloieve Harry Maryles. I asked around and was told to basically ignore it.
ReplyDeleteIgnoring it simply means Google will give over to the party in the lawsuit that subpoened the information as to who posted the comment(s) in question -- i.e. Google Account name, IP address, etc.
ReplyDeleteAlso,which side of this lawsuit subpoenaed this information is not stated.
ReplyDeleteWell, since you insisted that we not post anonymously, many of us took google accounts just to post here.
ReplyDeleteIf the release of our names is not contested by you or other Jewish blogs, I guess I'll drop off all the forums from now on.
Google has the IP address of even anonymous posts. Once they have the IP address they can subpoena the internet provider who owns that IP to find out which customer used that IP address at that time. So Anon posting really isnt so anon.
ReplyDeleteDave,
ReplyDeleteSo unless we sign up for truly anonymous email addresses overseas or deal with blogs and service providers who stand up for internet anonymity, then the thugs will win, eventually.
Yes, I think it orchestrated (or at least supported) by R' Aron Schechter to find out the identity of RAP. RAP was a thorn in his side for years criticizing his people Michael Hersh and lehavdil ben tahor vetame Leib Tropper.
ReplyDeleteRAP was also insinuating that by R' Aron Schechter himself received money from Tropper.
Anon:
ReplyDeleteEven that won't help. Doesn't matter what e-mail address you use. If you are in the U.S. at the time of your post and the website you are posting to is based in the U.S., your goose is cooked. It is possible to then subpoena your information via the courts.
Dave,
ReplyDeleteWell, it shows that I don't know anything about the legalities of the present internet, which started out as a safe haven for all to share, the ultimate "open system". Then the Web came out in the early nineties IIRC, and people predicted that businesses would use it to advertise and maybe even conduct business. Now it's mostly business, it seems.
It also seems that safe haven is disappearing, unless the safe harbor protections under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act reach out to protect bloggers as well.
This is an interesting article about a ruling on that act. But the battle here took place between two "big guys", not between thugs and bloggers:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704629804575325191988055312.html
"Bradley Silverman's Biography Bradley F. Silverman, received his undergraduate degree, magna cum laude, from Brandeis University. He received his law degree from the University of Pennsylvania Law School where he served as a member of the Moot Court Board and as Senior Editor of the Journal of International Economic Law. Mr. Silverman represents clients in federal and state courts, as well as in arbitrations and mediations. He has experience handling numerous types of litigations including those involving contract disputes, partnerships, closely-held corporations, intellectual property, unfair competition, employment matters, Constitutional law, RICO Act claims, estate disputes, landlord-tenant matters and white-collar criminal prosecutions. Prior to joining the firm, he was associated with Kaye Scholer LLP. Mr. Silverman is admitted to practice in New York State, the United States District Courts for the Southern and Eastern Districts of New York and the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. He is a member of the American Bar Association and the New York State Bar Association."
ReplyDeleteHmm, "contract disputes, partnerships, closely-held corporations, intellectual property, unfair competition, employment matters, Constitutional law, RICO Act claims, estate disputes, landlord-tenant matters and white-collar criminal prosecutions" -- basically his experience is in real estate matters, he has to have been sent over by someone with connections in real estate. Now who could that be?
Trying to understand who "Bradley F. Silverman" is and who he really represents. What are his bona fides, there seems to be confusion about who he is and who he works for.
ReplyDeleteA Google search on "Bradley F. Silverman" shows him to be part of "Storch Amini & Munves ['SAM law'], PC specializes in complex business litigation, bankruptcy litigation and trial work." But a search of Storch Amini & Munves's website shows that there is no one by that name working there! In fact in the alleged "subpoena" Google states that "Bradley F. Silverman" represents "Danzig Fishman & Decea ['DFD law']" but on Danzig Fishman & Decea's web site there is no mention of "Bradley F. Silverman" either.
Then if one looks at the web site of "Meister Seelig & Fein LLP" attorneys for the Plaintiff (presumably those that are also working with "Bradley F. Silverman"), again there is no "Bradley F. Silverman" so what's up?
In addition, in the letter from Google it gives "Bradley F. Silverman" as being in White Plains, NY, and a search on Google shows that a "Bradley F. Silverman" has his own office as of 1/1/2010 listed as "BRADLEY F SILVERMAN LLC 1 Sunnyside Place, Irvington, NY 10533" which perhaps "explains" his White Plains address.
Now, of course, there may be more than one "Bradley F. Silverman" in fact there may be a few, who knows.
So at this point, there is great confusion as to EXACTLY who "Bradley F. Silverman" really is and what to make of all the conflicting contact information for him, such as:
1. Does he work for himself, as "Bradley F. Silverman LLC"? or
2. Does he work for Storch Amini & Munves as one "Bradley F. Silverman" seems to? or
3. Does he work for Danzig Fishman & Decea, as he signs above that firms name in Google's letter? or
4. Is he connected with Meister Seelig & Fein LLP, who are representing the Plaintiff, as displayed in court papers?
For all of the above? Can't be. None of the above? Who knows. One of the above? Could be.
This is starting to look very strange and for a matter that claims to be so important, it should NOT be so vague and befuddled.
Could the real "Bradley F. Silverman" please stand up!
Can anyone please call that number and confirm what he wants! Thanks a lot!
"LL Cool Jew said...Yes, I think it orchestrated (or at least supported) by R' Aron Schechter to find out the identity of RAP."
ReplyDeleteRaP: But why now when the world KNOWS the worst about both Leib Tropper and Michael Hersh whose acts have been reported in both the print Jewish and secular media? Perhaps years ago, when Tropper was riding high and Hersh was anonymous bloggers suspicious of them may have been easy to dismiss, but now that both Tropper and Michael Hersh were openly and publicly forced to resign from positions of public trust in the Torah world (Tropper from EJF and Kol Yaakov and Hersh from Hatzola) the facts are known to all by now, vindicating what the bloggers may have stated when the pictures were still cloudy.
"RAP was a thorn in his side for years criticizing his people Michael Hersh and lehavdil ben tahor vetame Leib Tropper."
RaP: Not sure what this means. Firstly, Rav Aron Schechter is too big (he's the most influential gadol on Aguda's moetzes in America) and too old (he's about 85 now), so he does not worry much about what bloggers say. His disciples and those that follow him do not give a darn about what's written about them online. to them it has at most nuisance value, like fleas on a dog's back.
"RAP was also insinuating that by R' Aron Schechter himself received money from Tropper"
RaP: This is false! Firstly, there was a list that was published in a now infamous Arutz Sheva article from an Email from Tropper to Guma, Jewish Billionaire Sues Prominent US Rabbi (published: 10/08/09) that lists "36 rabbis Rabbi Tropper reviewed" with Rav Aron Schechter as being one of many rabbis who received funds from Guma, presumably for the yeshiva he heads.
Therefore, it's NOT RaP "insinuating" anything, when it's in an article still online, read it yourself! (Would Aron Schechter and Michael Hersh/Tropper also sue Arutz Sheva-Israel national News for publishing an original document/Email?)
So at no point did RaP "insinuate" that "R' Aron Schechter himself received money from Tropper" or from anyone personally, but it IS a matter of record that EJF/Tropper gave out many grants to yeshivas and institutions it favored. Rav Aron Schechter is a wealthy man in his own right and does not personally need "money" from Tropper, but like any rosh yeshiva he is responsible for looking for funds for his yeshiva from wherever he can get them, and Tropper helped. By the way, it went the other way as well, before Tropper teamed up with Tom Kaplan and created EJF giving out huge amounts of money to all and sundry, Avrohom Fruchthandler president of Chaim berlin yeshiva (and as always it was Rav Aron Schechter advising him) to give large sums to prop and support Kol Yaakov yeshiva which was always short of cash until Guma and and his uncle Tom showed up to bail out Tropper and launch him into the stratosphere with the EJF extravaganza.
Please be careful with the facts and your own incorrect insinuations.
I think a safe middle ground would be to directly reply to google to say 1. This appears to be a broad fishing expedition request.
ReplyDelete2. You personally have not commented on this matter.
3. One of your commenters did and you would expect Google to uphold the privacy of the commenter as they have promised they would.
This letter would cost you nothing in legal expenses and would at least contsitute a reply pending clarification. I know Zvi Gluck in Brooklyn is another direct target of the Hersh suit and he think he would be glad to share his take on this with you. He is on facebook.
Does anyone no what the law suit is about?
ReplyDeleteConsidering that both Rav Aaron Schecter and Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky were involved on opposite sides - one would assume that there are two sides to this story.
Furthmore who gave them permission to go secular court? What is the principle that is being defended.
finally I would think that the incident is over since the child involved should be 18 years old now.
This lawsuit is a witch hunt being funded by Chaim Berlin on behalf of the hirsh's as payback for his son being brought home from the terrible boot camp in Jamaica, and then losing custody of his boys.
ReplyDeleteThis is called nekama, also pls note that they did not go to bet din, as required by Jewish law, because Chaim Berlin is above the law, as you can verify from the siriv issued by reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l against Aron Schechter.
If u look at the lawsuit u will see the aunt and uncle, Wolbe family, Gluck and others involved in the rescue, and now being sued for their heroic acts.
Habeas Corpus
ReplyDeleteKings Civil Supreme
Index Number: 043854/2007
Case Name: GREHER,ROSA DEBORAH vs. HERSH,MICHAEL
Case Type: Other
Track: Standard
RJI Filed: 11/29/2007
http://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/fcas/FCAS_docs/2007NOV/2300438542007100SCIV.pdf
SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF
COUNTY OF KINGS
The People of the State of New
York on relation of ROSA DEBORAH
GREHER and ELLIOTT ALVIN GREHER (aunt & uncle in Silver Spring MD),
acting on behalf of ISAAC HERSH,
infant, Plaintiff
-- against --
MICHAEL HERSH AND MIRIAM HERSH
Index No.
TO: MICHAEL HERSH AND MIRIAM HERSH, residing at 1014 East l0th Street, Brooklyn, New York or anyone else having control of ISAAC HERSH
WE COMMAND YOU, that you have the body of ISAAC HERSH, by you imprisoned and detained, as it is said, together with the time and cause of such imprisonment and detention, by control of ISAAC HERSH ...
The Court seems to indicate that the judge granted the defendants motion to dismiss on 08/12/2009. The order was actually signed on 05/14/2010.
ReplyDeleteSo why is Hersh still going after Rav Eidensohn & the bloggers?
It does indicate also however that the parties will be back in court on 07/30/2010 for some unspecified motion.
Any lawyers here who can decipher this?
Kings Civil Supreme
Index Number: 006170/2009
Case Name: HERSH,MIRIAM & MICHAEL vs. COHEN,ELIZABETH REBECCA, Raphael Cohen,Aryeh Larry Wolbe, Eli Wolbe, et al
Case Type: Other Torts
Track: Standard
RJI Filed: 04/07/2009
Date NOI Due:
NOI Filed:
Disposition Deadline:
Disposition Date:
Calendar Number:
Jury Status:
Justice Name: BERNADETTE BAYNE
Attorney/Firm For Plaintiff:
MEISTER SEELIG & FEIN Attorney Type: Attorney Of Record Atty. Status: Active
140 EAST 45TH STREET, 19TH FL
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10017
212-655-3500
Attorney/Firm For Defendant:
SOLOMON N. KLEIN Attorney Type: Attorney Of Record Atty. Status: Active
1410 BROADWAY, STE 1802
NEW YORK, NY 10018
212-575-0202
STUART KAGEN, ESQ. Attorney Type: Attorney Of Record Atty. Status: Active
4 DIANA'S TRAIL
STATEN ISLAND, NY 10304
646-270-8532
i think its about time that somebody is fighting back against the blogs full of loshon hora its a long time that its going on unchecked!!!
ReplyDeletepeoples lives are being destroyed and turned into mud just because somebody has a vandetta against someone, in this time and age any body can put stuff up without any facts its about time to stop all of that
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletei think its about time that somebody is fighting back against the blogs full of loshon hora its a long time that its going on unchecked!!!
peoples lives are being destroyed and turned into mud just because somebody has a vandetta against someone, in this time and age any body can put stuff up without any facts its about time to stop all of that
Yeah, anon. It's time to give the powerful their unlimited power back. Lordy Mordy, tropper, all the leaders should be able to crush anyone who speaks out against them. And let child molesters who give to mosdos use only the cutest of our children!
Oh, I was being sarcastic. (I figured I needed to tell you that explicitly because you seem to have a case of recticranial inversion.
Sorry to tell you Mr recticranial inversion your barking does not make any sense I'm talking about red and you are talking about blue since when are you going to condemn all people because there are some nuts out there so now you can kill anybody because there are some murderers on the loose.
ReplyDeletewhat are you talking about
its utterly stupid sounds more like somebody is thirsty for other peoples blood and unfortunately this is what it became a blood fest and some people need more and more and more just busy who else can we eat up today who's life can we destroy its time to wake up there is enough TZORES by KLALL YOSROEL let the people who post against others first learn through all the halochos of loshen hora this is not a joke or some fun these are peoples lives and families we are talking about some of them who may never recover think about it kids wife livelihood everything please take what I'm saying to hart and may hashem protect us from all bad
"Anonymous said...i think its about time that somebody is fighting back against the blogs full of loshon hora its a long time that its going on unchecked!!!"
ReplyDeleteRaP: What "lashon hora"??? Can you explain please. This blog is a discussion forum and almost always the serious and steady posters base themselves on publicly known facts, albeit uncomfortable, but they are common knowledge. For example, is it "lashon hora" to call Tropper a "menuval" when rabbonim, including Rav Moshe Shternbuch and Rabbi Rothkopf (who called Tropper a "menuval shebemenuvalim" berabim) have said so and told others to publicize it? Or is it "lashon hora" to say that Michael Hersh had his under-age son kidnapped (the worst kind of violation of "lo signov" possible) in the middle of the night and had the poor screaming kid sent in handcuffs to a boot camp (misnamed "Tranquility Bay") in far off Jamaica, that set off both a human rights uproar and a huge feud within the American Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah pitting Rav Aron Schechter on behalf of Michale Hersh his talmid, against Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky (adviser to the Wolbes and the Houston Kollel) and Rav Dovid Feinstein who were on the side of Isaac Hersh being rescued from the clutches of the goons on Jamaica island where kids die. All this was in many newspapers and not just blogs that you demean. So are you normal when you say this is just "loshan hora" when any Yid is supposed to speak up and defend another Yid, and this case it was Isaac Hersh who needed to be defended against his own father who put him in chains and shipped him off to a wild island, signing legal papers and all.
"peoples lives are being destroyed"
RaP: Like who? Michael Hersh destroyed his own kid's life when he put his own kid in chains and sent him off like a prisoner into the Gulag. Tropper destroyed the lives of plenty of people. Who is kidding who here?
"and turned into mud"
RaP: Like who? Michael Hersh and Tropper have made their own names into mud, without help from anybody. Don't shoot the messenger.
"just because somebody has a vandetta against someone,"
RaP: Right now it looks like Hersh and Tropper (typically and predictably) are the ones who are keeping up vendettas when the Torah world would be more than happy to forget they ever existed.
"in this time and age any body can put stuff up"
RaP: So put some of your own facts up without falsely accusing others just because you don't like "this time and age". What would you prefer, a return to cave wall paintings? Carrier pigeons? Cuneiform? Smoke signals? Telegrams? The world is in the information age, and if you have the truth then state it and you will have nothing to fear. Accusing others of "loshan hora" is easy when you have no real facts or convincing truth to back you up.
"without any facts its about time to stop all of that"
RaP: Ok, so what are the "facts" that you wish to state or dispute? Hiring a lawyer to shut up dozens of bloggers, many of whom have put great effort into researching and backing up what they have written and that's based on public records will be IMPOSSIBLE to silence with strong-arm scare tactics that befit the Mafia. Shame on you and your hypocrisy.
By opening your lecture on proper speech with name calling, you negate your entire point.
ReplyDeleteBut in any case, this is the one blog about which you can NOT make that criticism. A large number of the posts are on the limits of the prohibition of LH. In short, you're hand-waving about LH and why we shouldn't speak up and expose problems in the community, and our host regularly quotes rishonim, the Chafetz Chaim, R' Shternbach and R' Moshe Halberstam proving you wrong.
So grow up, talk like a mature human being, and learn the full nuances and complexity of both halakhah and life.
-micha
Do yourself a favor and dont ignore this! Dont take advice from all of us Joe schmoes! get a GOOD lawyer!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1035114/anonymous-blogger-gets-subpoena
ReplyDeleteON FRIDAY, a New Jersey Superior Court judge quashed a subpoena seeking the identity of an anonymous blogger.
Known only by the pseudonym "daTruthSquad" on Google's Blogspot service, the blogger was strongly critical of local government in Manalapan township.
After the blog critic became especially outspoken about the township filing a malpractice lawsuit against its former city attorney, the township subpoenaed Google demanding that it divulge the blogger's identity, contact information, emails, blog drafts and "any and all information related to the blog."
Manalapan's anonymous nemesis turned to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) for legal representation. The EFF asked the township to withdraw the subpoena, terming it "frivolous" and unenforceable, an improper attempt to " unmask an anonymous speaker who was engaged in activity protected by the First Amendment." The township's lawyers told the EFF to complain to a judge.
In late November, the EFF did just that, filing a motion to quash the subpoena.
In a hearing Friday, Judge Terence Flynn granted the EFF's motion, ruling that the blogger has the right to anonymous speech under the First Amendment to the US Constitution.
"We're grateful that Judge Flynn upheld the First Amendment rights of our client and recognized that anonymous speakers should not be intimidated into silence through the discovery process," EFF Staff Attorney Matt Zimmerman said in a statement. "Now 'daTruthSquad' can continue to discuss township business without fear of government reprisal."
I understand that this lawsuit has been dismissed, but I don't see any reference to the dismissal on your blog yet. Have you heard anything about it?
ReplyDelete