I just received two copies of the following comment. Assuming it is genuine and not a troll, it indicates a need for greater discussion - as well extra Torah lessons from his teachers. I would be very appreciative if anonymous would please contact his teachers at EJF and ask them whether they 1) agree with him 2) think that he expressed himself appropriately. If they in fact approve of his sentiments then I am willing to post an expanded version of this posting - so that I can respond to it. On the other hand if they find that it is not in accord with halacha and derech eretz than I would appreciate an apology. I welcome civil comments by anyone who wants to discuss the issues - whether they agree or disagree with me.
---------------------------Anonymous said...
As a secular-raised Jew (not frum) married to a goya undergoing conversion via the EJF, I must tell you from the bottom of my hear to please drop dead.
It's because of Jews like you that 85% of our people want nothing to do with Hashem, Torah & Mitzvot.
May the Aybishter see fit to show you the errors of your close-minded ways as painlessly as possible, for your own sake. You are committing the worst of aviras. May Hashem show you mercy when He asks you why you were responsible for so many possible frum Jews being thrown back into the secular world.
I hope that the teachers at EJF will explain to this man why we have to hold by the rulings of our Gedolim. I also hope that EJF does indeed consider the Gedolim who make up the Rabbis of Bedatz to be True Gedolim.
ReplyDeleteThe yoke of Torah and Mitzvoth is a very heavy burden that Hashem chose us, as Jews to bear.
My mother used to say when we were little, "Avraham Avinu was a loner, a religion of one man who followed Hashem. To be a Jew can sometimes be very hard and very lonely. We are a minority within a minority and we are hated and reviled by the world around us".
As Jews we have to do what our Torah commands us and this includes our Living Torah, the Psak of our Gedolim. Often this is very hard and we suffer simply because we were born Jews.
Being a Torah Observant Jew is not easy, especially for those who are returnees to observance. This is why we say that the greatest tzaddik cannot stand in the place of a true Baal Teshuva.
Becoming observant means giving up many things that one enjoyed before becoming religious and it is very difficult. I am fortunate that I never had to make these decisions because I am sure that I would not pass the test that is before you. But you know and want to do it!!
I hope that Hashem will give you the strength to do the mitzvoth that you have been chosen for. I hope that you will be blessed with every possible Torah blessing as you return to an observant lifestyle. I sincerely believe that you will come to build a Torah true Jewish home with a Jewish woman.
I know of many other Jewish men who have made the proper choice to leave a Gentile woman and return to the ways of our Holy Torah. While this is surely a very very difficult thing to do, I have never met anyone who regretted such a decision. May Hashem Bless you with the strength to do what you know deep down in your heart you must.
I heard fresh rumors, the Bedatz are not satisfied with their own actions to date and intend to make an all out public campaign against the EJF.
ReplyDeleteNow Rav Weis the Gaavad has also joined the opponents in full force.
Rumors have it, that there was some action which Rav Weis took but was not publicised.
The Bedatz seem particularly worried about gatherings of the EJF in Israel and the use of Israeli Rabbis to justify their cause.
Rabbi Eidensohn do you by chance know anything from any of your contacts?
I will bli neder check into these rumors.
ReplyDeleteDear Rabbi;
ReplyDeleteDid you receive any decent response from the EJF to your letter in the JP?
I am the poster of the original posting telling you to drop dead.
ReplyDeletePerhaps that was a bit strong, and I apologize. But you, sir, need to daven to Hashem to see if what you think is His will is actually not.
You are telling millions of potential frum Jews to spiritually drop dead with your attack on EJF.
I am not a troll. I am a real person, one of millions of Jews in mixed marriages. I am not revealing any more info as to not be blackballed and put in cherum by certain Rabbis who hold themselves to be the levavdil Pope of Torah Jewry.
I am writing on behalf of nobody or no organization. What I say does in no way reflect the beliefs, ideas, or thoughts of the EJF.
I need not check in with them, you or anyone else to post what I want to. Should I ask my mommy when I can go to the bathroom as well?
As I said before, you are creating aveira upon aveira, dear Rabbi.
Perhaps in some situations with Russian Jews in Israel that you mention, there are some major issues, especially if those people have tenuous connections to Torah Judaism.
But what you are doing in regards to the extremely large number of American Jewish men who are (or are becoming) Torah-observant, with families also wishing to become Jewish & Torah observant is horrible.
Protect klal Yisrael for sure, but not at the expense of destroying future Jewish neshamas, and most probably pushing them so far away with a disgusting taste in their collective mouth, that they become fodder for the messianic and Jews for Yushke missionaries who in their wildest dreams could only imagine the gift you are giving them. Go look at the Chosen People Ministries & Jews for Yushke web sites and see for yourself the outreach those rashas are doing to those you wish to throw in the garbage of Jewish history.
Regarding the poster who, like a simpleton, says for the Jewish males to leave their goya wives, you must be from the town of Chelm, with that statement.
Wake up, frum Yidden! EIGHTY-FIVE percent of Jews are not Shomer Shabbos or affiliated with anything Torah-observant.
Organizations like the EJF are the only ones with the courage, foresight & wisdom to be proactive enough to try and change those numbers, in regards ONLY to those goyim who truly wish to become one of the Chosen.
Hashem gave you a heart as well as a brain. Use it.
[I'd greatly appreciated it if you use a different name since there are many people who call themselves anonymous. Perhaps you could call yourself "Defender of EJF" or something similar.
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Anonymous,
Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to defend your position. I accept your apology and realize now that you reacted so strongly because you view my position as leading to the holocaust of “millions of potential frum Jews.” You are obviously confident that you clearly understand the will of G d through your commonsense while my view - despite its reliance on the classic Torah sources - is apparently from the other side. Thus you strongly support EJF and reject any criticism of their program. I would really appreciate it if you would take the time to explain your views in greater detail and answer some questions.
1) I was surprised by your statement that “ What I say does in no way reflect the beliefs, ideas, or thoughts of the EJF. I need not check in with them, you or anyone else to post what I want to. Should I ask my mommy when I can go to the bathroom as well?”
Does that mean that you think that EJF would not approve of what you are saying or merely that it is so obvious to you that they agree with you that it is a waste of time consulting with them? Would you mind if I send your comments to them and ask for their reaction?
2) Then you say, “As I said before, you are creating aveira upon aveira, dear Rabbi.”
What aveira am I doing by questioning a program of proselytizing? When did proselytizing acquire the status of a mitzva?
3) Perhaps – before replying to my questions you would honor us by telling us something about your background. You mentioned that you were once a secular Jew. Does that mean that you now observe Shabbos, kashrus and all the other mitzvos? Why did you decide to become religious – especially since you married out of the faith – that must have taken real courage. Furthermore why did your wife decide to convert? Has she accepted the tremendous yoke of keeping all the mitzvos? I would also be interested in how did you find out about EJF and how did you get involved with them?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDear Rabbi;
Did you receive any decent response from the EJF to your letter in the JP?
December 17, 2007 5:36 PM
unfortunately no.
I shall call myself the "Neshama Saver" from now on to differentiate myself from the numerous other Anonymous' out there.
ReplyDeleteThank you for accepting my apology. Yes, you see clearly what I believe you are attempting to do. You may not see it as a spiritual holocaust of potential frum Jews, but it most assuredly is... just as much a threat as the missionaries that wish to destroy Torah & Mitzvot like did the Greeks tried during the reign of King Antiochus.
I do not wish to compare you to the missionaries, as they are pure rashas (deluded warped well-meaning ones, that is). But the end result is the same, that is, thousands if not millions of people, Jews & non-Jews (future halachachly-correct converts only, of course), leaving klal Yisrael due to the misguided actions of well-meaning Rabbis.
I would never be so full of hubris to say I understand the will of Hashem. I am a simple, modest, shomer Shabbos, glatt-kosher-only eating, synagogue-attending simple Yid. I will attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I am not a Rav, even though I read & study Torah, Bavli, and other frum sources profusely.
1) What I was trying to get across with my statement is that I am independent of EJF, and what I say or do has nothing to do with them. As long as I and my wife are keeping Torah, are shomer Shabbos, keep the laws of purity, eat glatt, and live a frum lifestyle, etc, they have nothing to say to us regarding what we say, do or write. That goes for any Torah-Jewish organization. This is not the Catholic Church, where one must listen to the Pope & the Magesterium or else face repercussions. Same things hold for every beis din on this planet. They don't care what I say as long as we are keeping a Torah lifestyle. Plus, I am a strong advocate of freedom of speech.
Feel free to send them my comments. My comments are my own, period. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you. It's like me asking if I can send your comments to Birthright or the JNF. You are independent of those groups whether you have had an association with them or not.
2)Your aveira is that you are playing with peoples' lives. Those of us who intermarried pretty much did so out of ignorance. We didn't do so out of rebellion against Hashem & the Torah. The great American melting pot taught us that being Jewish was like being Polish, Russian, or Canadian. What was the big deal if a Frenchman marries a Mexican? Or if a black man marries a white woman?
Now that we have been enlightened regarding the fact that there is a G-d, the Torah is true, and that we are keeping mitzvot and actually living a frum lifestyle, are we to destroy thousands of families (most with innocent children being raised Torah-observant as well)?
Should every Jewish male married to a goya who is seriously going through the process of gerus, divorce their wives, throw away their gentile (for now) kids, and move on. Dear sir, halachachly that may or may not be the correct thing to do. But nobody is going to do so, especially the millions of us raised, through no fault of our own, secular.
And what about the Jewish women with children, married to goys? Is outreach to them more "kosher" as their kids are halachachly Jewish, and it's not such a stretch to just convert one member of the family?
What EJF does is not proselytizing.
They are trying to to right a wrong that almost two centuries of being frei, secular and Torah-less perpetuated on the overwhelming majority of Yidden, especially in the U.S.
3)I would love to honor you by sharing more about myself, but as I said in an earlier post, I do not wish to be blackballed into cherum purgatory for the rest of my life.
I will tell you what I can.
Yes, I 100% observe Shabbos, yontif, kashrus and as many mitzvos as I can.
I decided to become religious as a result of being married to a goya. The existential questions as well as the conflicting religious messages forced me to seek the truth about G-d. I discovered that Christianity is a huge lie, that secular life is empty and hopeless, and that only by living with Hashem as one's anchor, while living life according to the Shulchan Aruch to the best of one's abilities is the only anchor there is in both this world and the afterlife.
I'm not sure if you are being facetious when you say it took courage to do what I did. But I am not the only one. I have met scores of couples in similar situations, and they have told me I have been a sort of beacon in the pitch black world of mixed marriage-land. If I can do it, so can they.
My wife has decided to convert for many reasons. One has to do with children. Another is me badgering her over & over with the truth of Torah that it finally took hold, and she truly sees it also as the truth.
Regarding her taking on the tremendous yoke of keeping all the mitzvos, yes, she is willing, ready & able to do so very soon, G-d willing.
I found out about EJF from their ads. WE were already involved for years with kiruv groups and had already attended numerous shabbatons, retreats, classes, etc.
EJF I believe is a great organization that can help others like us who don't know how to traverse the path we have.
I cannot say how we are involved as that is simply giving away too much information to maintain my anonymity.
That is why what you are doing infuriated me. It's not a pipe dream. The world is ripe for tens, if not, hundreds of thousands of non-Jews to join klal Yisrael. These goyim already have a heart for a Jew, Hashem, Torah & Mitzvas.
Why push sincere potential converts, as well as their Jewish spouses as well as their precious children away?
We should be rescuing them, not trying to destroy them.
Warmly,
This is a response to "anonymous" who apologize to Rabbi Eidensohn for tell him to drop dead.
ReplyDeleteI personally know of many formerly intermarried Jews who have left their Gentile partners. And sadly, I also have known quite a few who have chosen to give up their connection to the Jewish people, for eternity instead.
I understand that you LIKE to live with a Gentile even though it is forbidden by our Torah. What you propose is that the Torah should be changed to accommodate your lifestyle; that you can call yourself observant while continuing to do everything YOU want to do.
I like to eat ice cream and I want to eat it after fried chicken, but every child learns as part of keeping kosher that we have to WAIT after eating meat and CONTROL ourselves for several hours before we eat dairy.
I HATE to separate from my husband for half of the month, its too long and its too hard. But like every other observant married woman, I have learned to do that which I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO DO, to CONTROL myself because this is what Hashem demands of me.
Many men find themselves in situations where they might be tempted to do things that are forbidden, but they DO NOT, they CONTROL THEMSELVES because that is what Hashem commands of us. Wishing to do forbidden things with a woman is something that many Observant Jewish men face throughout their lives.
What about the person who grew up eating ham and eggs? He never knew there was anything wrong with that so should we permit him to continue eating pork?
Mr. Anonymous, do you wish to become an observant Jew, or do you only want the definition of observant to become what you ARE now?
Sadly this is part of the entitlement mentality that pervades American culture and says "accept me as I am or forget it!!" This attitude might be American culture, but it is NOT Torah Judaism.
If you wish to have a relationship with Hashem and you want sincerely to serve Hashem with all of your heart, with all of your soul and with all of your might, you are going to have to work for it, suffer for it and strive for it every day, just as every other observant Jew in the world does, and has always done back to Mt. Sinai have always done.
Anyone who tells you differently, that you can continue to do that which is prohibited by the Torah and still be a Torah Jew is selling you on a falsehood that is Reform and not Torah Judaism.
The rewards of an observant life in this world and the World to Come are enormous. But like anything else worth having, it does not come easy, not for me, not for you, not for our grandparents and not for anyone.